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Snakeoil
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Snakeoil » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:52 pm

They actually make a couple of products to decarbon engines. One, Power Tune is for 2-strokes and recommended to me by a well respected outboard mechanic. The other is BG Products. You cannot buy over the counter. They are a shop-only product and there is a procedure for using it.

I had a Durango with a 318 that my wife drove. It had an intake leak that caused it to injest oil and it was getting to the point where it would ping like crazy on any hill from the carbon build up. My cousin brought his BG equipment home and we gave the engine the full treatment. When I left his place, I thought the engine was coming apart. The carbon that came loose made the engine sound like it was full of loose nuts and bolts. My cousin told me later that he was laughing in his driveway as I went down the road because he assumed I was freaking out in the car. Well, when it blew out all the loose carbon, it was like a brand new engine. I could not make it ping no matter how hard I tried.

There actually is one more item that will eat up carbon, lye. But it's nasty stuff and I would not recommend anyone use it except on disassembled parts. I use it to clean out vintage mufflers and exhausts before sending them to be rechromed.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by hillbillybob » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:05 am

I too am a believer in MMO. Use it at a rate of .4 to .5 ounces per gallon, in all of my gas powered equipment.....carburetored and EFI, from my 150cc scooter, to my Silverado. Truly believe you can eliminate 95% of carb problems by using non ethanol gas with a shot of MMO.....not once in a while..... but every time you top off your tank.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Mothra35 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:31 pm

I added some last time I filled up...well when I got home, so I didn't actually have a full tank,
My question is does it turn the fuel filters like orange red?
Thought it may be rust but when I shine a light in the tank don't see any signs of rust, can only think it is the MMO I added...may have pour to much to. :oops:
Last edited by Mothra35 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by rivers » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:22 pm

I use MMO occasionally and never seen the red/orange syndrom in my filters. I don't use much though. About 1 oz/per 5 gal tank.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Dbmanthe » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:03 pm

What does adding 2 stroke oil Do? Help to clean?

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Doc » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:20 am

I run Redline synthetic in all the holes. I keep a bottle of MMO in the trunk and use it in the fuel. In pinch I can use the MMO to top off the engine, tranny, FD, and it sure beats having to carry different oils to top off the bike fluid levels.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by dneprlover » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:04 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
There actually is one more item that will eat up carbon, lye. But it's nasty stuff and I would not recommend anyone use it except on disassembled parts. I use it to clean out vintage mufflers and exhausts before sending them to be rechromed.

You forgot to say Rob DON'T USE LYE ON ANYTHING ALUMINIUM. It eats it and can turn a piston into sloppy mush in a few hours.
I use it a lot for degreasing and paint removing. It's good stuff but has to be treated with caution.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Blue Ridge Wheeltor » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:17 pm

Dbmanthe wrote:What does adding 2 stroke oil Do? Help to clean?

640:1 for top end lubrication.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Snakeoil » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:56 am

What your conclusion is not considering is perhaps with the correction of the problem that created your deposits, just running the engine burned off th excess deposits and that is why your piston tops looks better. Putting MMM in your gas is just a coincidental event and does not mean it cleaned off the pistons. It's like putting a new tire on at the same time and equating the clean piston top to the new tire. Not sayin you are wrong and not dumping on MMM. But your conclusion is kinda on shakey ground.

The Italian valve job is an old trick. Glad to see it has not been lost to time like so many other old tricks that work.
Last edited by Snakeoil on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:32 pm

"According to the company's 2015 safety data sheet Marvel Mystery Oil is composed of:

Petroleum Distillates (Hydrotreated Heavy Naphthenic) also known as mineral oil, 60-100%
Petroleum Distillates (Stoddard Solvent) also known as white spirit, 10-30%
Tricresyl phosphate, an antiwear and extreme pressure additive in lubricants 0.1-1.0%
Ortho Dichlorobenzene, a softening and removing agent for carbon-based contamination on metal surfaces, 0.1-1.0%
Para Dichlorobenzene, a precursor used in the production of chemically and thermally resistant polymers, <0.1%

A Marvel Mystery Oil sample tested for an NTSB post aircraft accident investigation published in 2003 found it to be composed of:
74 percent mineral oil
25 percent stoddard solvent
1 percent lard

This discrepancy has not been resolved.
"

So why was the NTSB investigating Marvel's in the first place?

"The lubricant was used as a fuel additive in a Lycoming aircraft engine which was specifically cautioned against their introduction (Service Instruction No. 1014M , which also stated their use would void the warranty) which suffered catastrophic damage during take-off. The NTSB listed the probable cause of the accident as "The improper use of [a] fuel additive which resulted in a power loss.""

Source: Wikipedia

Tricresyl phosphate WAS a common gasoline additive...it's a lead scavenger back when gasoline was leaded. Not much lead to scavenge in gasoline these days.

Orthodichlorobenzene is a solvent for carbon build-up, but it isn't used in gasoline by anyone. If it works, why wouldn't gas companies use it in their gas?

Para Dichlorobenzene is another chemical that no gasoline company is using as an additive in their gas. It has important commercial uses, like in mothballs and in a product as economically important as Marvel's...urinal cakes.

So assuming that Marvel's IS using these chemicals...why isn't anyone else? Gasoline companies love to tout how their product will clean your engine and improve performance, so why don't they use them? They could certainly procure or produce them way cheaper than the Marvel company can acquire them, based solely on economy of scale.

I find it funny that all the other synthetic oil and "snake" oil companies that claim magical properties for their products publish at least some data or test that shows their product provides a modest improvement, yet Marvel's never released ONE study or report showing ANY benefit at all. Not one. In almost 90 years. They don't even bother to explain by what mechanisms or reactions the product would produce all of the claimed benefits, let alone ONE of them.

At the recommended ratio of 4oz per 10 gallons of gasoline you get a concentration of 0.003 or 0.3% Marvel's.
Any of the ingredients listing a 0.1% concentration in Marvel's would represent just 0.000003 or 0.0003% of the gas/snake oil mixture.
Any of the ingredients listing a 0.1% concentration in Marvel's would represent just 0.000003 or 0.0003% gas/snake oil mixture.

For engines, Marvel recommends replacing 1/5th of your engine oil with MMO.
Given that it has a MUCH lower viscosity than your recommended oil, I'm not a huge fan of that idea.
By Marvel's own admission MMO contains up to 30% Stoddard solvent, AKA turpentine.
So why not replace 135ml of 20W-50 on your next oil change with turpentine?

I think there is probably a slight benefit to removing sludge/crud from an engine by adding Stoddard solvent to the oil, but I wouldn't run with it regularly. I've heard of guys adding it to fix sticky lifters or clean out sludge form an older engine but the oil is then drained.
There is no benefit I can see or any data to back up the claims for using it as a fuel additive.

It has survived this long due to placebo effect and the fact that it is used in such diluted concentrations that it is effectively harmless.
Last edited by BinDerSmokDat on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:41 pm

And I'm NOT anti-additive.
Tests have shown that sludge and deposits accumulate in engines running cheap no-name gas without additives at a far greater rate than in Top Tier gasolines with an additive package.
Even Consumer Reports recommends the use of Top Tier gasolines.
I use Techron additive or try to run a couple of tanks of Top Tier gasoline through all my vehicles every month or so.
The impact of these additives packages have been shown in scientific testing and all major brands of automobile manufacturers recognize their efficacy.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:55 pm

Snakeoil wrote:BG products makes a line of engine cleaners that truly does what they claim.
I'm not too impressed with most of BG's claims.

See this test...

https://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/this- ... -the-test/

So it MIGHT clean up the engine a little, but they did 40 runs on the dyno.
Why only show us the results of 6 runs?
Also they show us runs #9 and #13...what about #10-#12?

And the BG worked IMMEDIATELY on the next run #14?
Also they did an oil change...how old and how worn was the previous oil?

Then they jump to run #22...what happened to runs #15-#22?
If BG was so effective from run #13 to #14...why not show us the runs?

And another treatment and we jump to run #34...what about runs #23-#33?
And what about runs #35-#40.

I'm sure it cleaned up the engine, but what were the conditions that sludged the engine in the first place?
Lots of stop-go city driving? 40 wide open throttle runs will do a lot to rid an engine of gunk, without any additives, in that case.
Was a top tier fuel used all along or a no-name fuel without detergents?
Might an engine running Top tier have been as clean or CLEANER than their after pics?

Too many questions and by not showing the data, it smacks of cherry picking the best runs.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Peter Pan » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:30 pm

There are apparently no data on effectivity of MMO and I have been searching mself for quite some time.
BUT I have seen it working with my own eyes and proven the cleaning action on the valves and badly carboned cylinderheads each time I adjust the valves.
As it is supposed to have an alkaline ph (somewhere Major ph7 *) it will eat up aluminium. Virgen stripped aluminium, that is how the valve covers look like after 500km with adding 1/3 MMO of what they claim you should add to the oil (they claim you to add 20% = 0,5l in our Urals, I use 0,07-0,2l just to top up)). (I compare that with how Aluminium looks like in the step after caustic soda when you do anodising. I wouldn't like to have something that aggressive inside my engine for continuous duty)
The effect on the oil is a bit hair rising on the neck too. (sticky like hell when cold and thinner then normal when the engine warmed up. Dark but not muddy) That are the reasons why I use MMO only short term just before oil changes.

Terpentine/Turpentine is not available on normal paint market anymore for quite a few years. For sure it would soften up carbon too. Pure Turpentine does lack lubrification, so it would not be a good idea to add too much of it without any EP compound to the oil.

One trick I got mentioned in my job in the last few month, and I am pretty sure it applies to MMO producers too: "They give you a vague indication of the mixture of multiple ingredients (80 in my case of EM bacteria) just in order to confuse you and distract someone who wants to reverse engineer the product from the really active portion of the mixture."

(A few years ago I was asked twice to build a fuel additive mixing plant. Both times I turned down the offer for various reasons...too dangerous for me or unskilled operators.) MMO looks like an inoffensive way to "pack"/"wrap" some nasty stuff or obviously simple stuff pretty much close to for what the buddy wanted to send me to Ethiopia.

Resumee for me: I do not know what and how MMO does its job, but I do see the result with my own eyes, and that is all what counts for me.
I am damn sure that most of its ingredients are pure "Eye w@$#" and only a very small portion does the job.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:25 pm

Peter Pan wrote:BUT I have seen it working with my own eyes and proven the cleaning action on the valves and badly carboned cylinderheads each time I adjust the valves.
As it is supposed to have an alkaline ph (somewhere Major ph7 *) it will eat up aluminium. Virgen stripped aluminium, that is how the valve covers look like after 500km with adding 1/3 MMO of what they claim you should add to the oil...
Even when my knocking engine with worn pistons and bad compression was running on one cylinder and I had tremendous amounts of crud in the oil, the valve side of things was very clean and the valve covers were like new finish with no build up. Even the oil pan was very clean as well when I swapped engines. I've never used MMO. these aluminum parts don't see the heat that combustion surfaces do, so baked-on, carbon build-up doesn't accumulate on them anyway.

As for aluminum, it actually is pretty resistant to corrosion in the 4-9 pH range.
I don't see anything in the MMO that jumps out in enough of a percentage to be outside of that range.
Regular combustion engine byproducts are found in greater concentrations than any of the "special" ingredients in MMO and would be more corrosive.
Peter Pan wrote:Terpentine/Turpentine is not available on normal paint market anymore for quite a few years.
Hmmmh maybe it's different in Costa Rica, but I can get all kinds of Turpentine locally...whether tree sourced or the petroleum-based paint thinner (Stoddard Solvent) that is generically called "turpentine" these days. Granted the tree sourced bottles are smaller and more expensive, but they are definitely available.
Peter Pan wrote:One trick I got mentioned in my job in the last few month, and I am pretty sure it applies to MMO producers too: "They give you a vague indication of the mixture of multiple ingredients (80 in my case of EM bacteria) just in order to confuse you and distract someone who wants to reverse engineer the product from the really active portion of the mixture."
According to both MMO's MSDS sheet and the NTSB analysis we know it contains about 75% mineral oil, about 25% Stoddard solvent and about 1% chlorinated hydrocarbons. Other than the aforementioned solvent properties of Stoddard solvent, there isn't anything that can produce the fuel additive effects they claim, in the concentrations they recommend. And see my previous argument about diluting your oil with turpentine/Stoddard solvent. Nothing in that ~1% of chlorinated hydrocarbons is going to change the fact that you are putting turpentine in your oil pan.
Peter Pan wrote:Question *: How do you meassure PH in an oil, that is supposed to not have any water content?
Great question...you really can't "measure" for most petroleum distillates! You either use a calculation or put a sample in a known quantity of water and measure pH change.

The pH scale that we all learned in school is based on aqueous chemistry. Vinegar is an acid and is low pH, lye in water is caustic and high pH. This suffices for most of us in just about every situation we are likely to encounter. "pH" is scientific notation for "potential of hydrogen." Everyone knows water is H2O. But in reality, it is also a bunch of -OH and +H. In oils there are no free -OH and +H but through calculations, a "potential of hydrogen" in non-aqueous solutions can be calculated that isn't the same as aqueous pH but is close. For most everyday things we do, petroleum distillate pH is a moot point, because it is close to to neutral!

There is an ASTM method for measuring pH in petro-chemicals, but it is just a more rigorous version of what most labs do; you place a set amount in water and measure the change in the water's pH. Usually it's about 1% solution in de-ionized water. So for most pure refined petroleum products you won't see much if any pH change. For crude oil and used oil analysis, it is the impurities and by-products of combustion respectively that make the oil corrosive and can show an increase or decrease in pH.

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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil

Post by Peter Pan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:48 pm

BinDerSmokDat wrote:

Code: Select all

 ~1% of chlorinated hydrocarbons
Ok, that should be strong solvents that should improve the effect of turpentine.

And in fact Turpentine has become difficult to get in Costa Rica and Germany..."all in the name of environmental protection" :bs: Now every paint brand wants you to buy their own special solvent for their paints coded with xy unknown fantasy names... :pot: :gahhh:

Next occasion I open my engines I will try to get Endoscope photos.
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With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain = :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates) 3. at 42.386km
transmission: 1. 40.000km. 2. installed
Engine: 1. 43.388km crank replacement: Back on the road since 23.Okt.2019 :party:

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