Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by Mr Wazzock » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:12 am

As was explained to me, synthetic does not mean "man made", it's still refined from crude, but with some extra chemistry added. The modifier, which is what makes it thicker when hot, has longer polymers so can stand getting chopped up into shorter bits for a longer time.

Things like ball and roller bearings really chew up the oil. Metals in suspension indicate how well it isn't working - the modifier's all gone leaving just the base SAE 20. The oil is basically knackered. So you can get bargain cheap 20-50 off eBay but it may last only 500 km. then your engine's on death row.

My dealer uses Rock Oil TRM, also as mentioned above, all oils are changed at the same time, every 2,500 km. Given the spec of TRM this may be a bit overkill but does allow me to go up 1,000 km over if I have to. And I have!

HTH
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by hotflash44 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:12 am
As was explained to me, synthetic does not mean "man made", it's still refined from crude, but with some extra chemistry added. The modifier, which is what makes it thicker when hot, has longer polymers so can stand getting chopped up into shorter bits for a longer time.

Things like ball and roller bearings really chew up the oil. Metals in suspension indicate how well it isn't working - the modifier's all gone leaving just the base SAE 20. The oil is basically knackered. So you can get bargain cheap 20-50 off eBay but it may last only 500 km. then your engine's on death row.

My dealer uses Rock Oil TRM, also as mentioned above, all oils are changed at the same time, every 2,500 km. Given the spec of TRM this may be a bit overkill but does allow me to go up 1,000 km over if I have to. And I have!

HTH
Good analogy Mr Waz, i agree i do use very expensive Redline 20w60 here in the desert,if a colder climate i would use a lighter oil. as you mentioned the strands holding up and resistance to heat is what drew me to use syn,i still eat the cost and change just a little over the recommended Dino oil time period. im not rich, but spare no cost to protect my engine even if its in my mind. all that being said i don't use the real expensive Redline oil in my car,just in my precious Ural. :cheers:
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by Mr Wazzock » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:51 pm

Quite so, again as was suggested to me, if the oil seems pricey compare it against an engine rebuild, or a new one. $$$$ :( (Or in our case, ££££ )
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by hotflash44 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:51 pm
Quite so, again as was suggested to me, if the oil seems pricey compare it against an engine rebuild, or a new one. $$$$ :( (Or in our case, ££££ )
yeah,i don't see oil threads as a bunch of crazy opinions, but rather every ones right to research and buy the oil they think is best for their Ural,simple! i really wouldn't be surprised if a Ural would do okay with cheap Walmart brand 20w/50 as long as its changed at correct intervals. :cheers:
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by RC20 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:54 pm

As was explained to me, synthetic does not mean "man made", it's still refined from crude, but with some extra chemistry added. The modifier, which is what makes it thicker when hot, has longer polymers so can stand getting chopped up into shorter bits for a longer time.

Things like ball and roller bearings really chew up the oil. Metals in suspension indicate how well it isn't working - the modifier's all gone leaving just the base SAE 20. The oil is basically knackered. So you can get bargain cheap 20-50 off eBay but it may last only 500 km. then your engine's on death row.
I don't think its sinking in that synthetics are not the same as regular oil, if the Passat can go the 10,000 miles safely, then a Ural can reach its recommended interval just as easily. Probably more so, it does not have the soot carrying need of the diesel.

Man made as in the various ways and approaches do not exist in nature. Some are highly purified base oils, so that certainly qualifies as modified.

However, its not an additive that is simply added to make it Synthetic. Mixed Synthetic and conventional oil would loose its additives the same as regular oil does.

What ultimately kills an oil is the acid build up (diesels of course have soot build up to contend with)

My Passat has an added EP competence due to the narrow cam they used to drive the Unit Injector (it had to fit in between he existing intake and exhaust valve lubes for that type of injection, but it also allows a great latitude mapping the injector events) .

In any event, a true Synthetics is extremely stable and while there may be additives in the oil, its not what makes synthetic synthetic nor does it boil or wear away.

If an oil is designed for a combustion engine, it does not get sheared away, be it synthetic or regular, it loads up with acids that eventually to the point the TBN falls below the lubricant requirement and is then removed (acualy you do it before ). Regular oil happens sooner, synthetic takes a lot longer.

The real cost is low enough that if someone wants to drain synesthetic out of an engine well before its time, it does not cause any issues and unless you run a fleet of over the road rigs, the pocketbook is not impacted. It doesn't make anything last longer either. Its wrong to say it is and does. It then becomes a personal choice which we call can respect but that should not be misconstrued to be a requirement.

The equipment mfg if they do recommend (some insist) on synthetics and the change interval is still going to be conservative so you don't ever exceed the oils capability (well short of running the Baha 1000) .

There is nothing unique about a Ural engine, its an air cooled automotive engine. Several diesel mfgs make air cooled diesels (Hatz and Deutz being the best known)

I worked on one Deutz that I estimated had 20,000 hours on it, sometimes good change interval and sometimes not. Said engine did not even have a true filet,r, it had a screen. It did that in 95 degree weather with 95% humidity its whole life and then got re-purposed after it got buried in Volcanic ash after which it ran an unknown longer period of time.

That was on regular oil.

If Ural and Motul have agreed the oil is good for 7500 km, then its still good past that by a long ways. Not to push it, but if it was mine, I would run it another 2,000 and not worry about it.

I ran a motorcycle well past the change interval after a fastener failure and unable to get the filter housing off (old non spin on) . Good oil (Castrol in those days) and not an issue.
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by RC20 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:16 pm

This covers the subject well.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by hotflash44 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:59 am

never understood why some people want to save money by stretching out the oil change intervals. same people will wast money on other unnecessary purchases. do your engines a favor whether syn/dino change oil regularly.IMHO of course. :cheers:
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by Mr Wazzock » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:22 am

Years ago my manager at the time skipped car services to save money. Then it went bang.
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by hotflash44 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:46 am

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:22 am
Years ago my manager at the time skipped car services to save money. Then it went bang.
Mr.Waz, hate to admit, but i had a high mile Saturn car that used about a quart a month, so i figured thats a oil change every 5 months, so i went 5 years just feeding the car a quart each month, with no adverse effects as far as i know, ran fine and sold for good money go figure! PS im not saying what i did is wise in anyway smart could have gone bad, just saying i did it and dodged a bullet. :oops:
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by Mr Wazzock » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:38 pm

Well that's almost like total loss lubrication - so it keeps getting new :D

IIRC my manager was baulking at £114 GBP (funny how I remember it being 114 [?]) for its annual service or whatever, was stuck for the readies at that precise mo (think hes was going though a separation) so thought he could leave until later when he was more flush. Car had other ideas. Think engine was rebuilt but probably cost hundreds.
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by RC20 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm

Mr.Waz, hate to admit, but i had a high mile Saturn car that used about a quart a month, so i figured thats a oil change every 5 months, so i went 5 years just feeding the car a quart each month, with no adverse effects as far as i know, ran fine and sold for good money go figure! PS im not saying what i did is wise in anyway smart could have gone bad, just saying i did it and dodged a bullet.
Its called a continuous oil change. At 4 months you had changed all your oil. A lot cheaper than fixing that problem assuig it was not smoking.

There was equipment that did that on diesel engines for a time (not now). It impulsed a bit of engine oil into the diesel tank. Same thing. Forget what the extension was. With ULSD its forbotten (wrecks emissions) .

I just changed the oil on a Generator that two trainees had done it on before (both gone). They did not write down what the actual fill was. 23 gallons in a 15l engine.

I have 3 x 27l engines that take 15 gallons.

Ah hah! That is how they extended the oil change interval, fixed engine, bigger oil pan, double the oil change interval (and double the oil or more). Hmmmm.
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:03 pm

RC20 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm
Mr.Waz, hate to admit, but i had a high mile Saturn car that used about a quart a month, so i figured thats a oil change every 5 months, so i went 5 years just feeding the car a quart each month, with no adverse effects as far as i know, ran fine and sold for good money go figure! PS im not saying what i did is wise in anyway smart could have gone bad, just saying i did it and dodged a bullet.
Its called a continuous oil change. At 4 months you had changed all your oil. A lot cheaper than fixing that problem assuig it was not smoking.

There was equipment that did that on diesel engines for a time (not now). It impulsed a bit of engine oil into the diesel tank. Same thing. Forget what the extension was. With ULSD its forbotten (wrecks emissions) .

I just changed the oil on a Generator that two trainees had done it on before (both gone). They did not write down what the actual fill was. 23 gallons in a 15l engine.

I have 3 x 27l engines that take 15 gallons.

Ah hah! That is how they extended the oil change interval, fixed engine, bigger oil pan, double the oil change interval (and double the oil or more). Hmmmm.
yeah,engines are really tougher than people think, its always better to change oil every so often, but i have seen so many that didn't get this care and still preformed/lasted for a long time. its just a stupid game of Russian roulette(pun intended) not to change oil when needed. its cheap insurance! :cheers:
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by RC20 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:01 pm

And that is really the bottom line. Synthetics when they came out claimed 25k. I never bought that. Maybe a modern engine on all highway and no stop and go, how often does that happen?

More or less for the Pickup its 5k with synthetic. As VW has a very specific oil and good with 10k, owners use it and no issues though in hot areas going up to 10W was suggested.

Better to change it too soon that too late.

I knew one Government generator they maint guy got it into his head you didn't have to change the oil ever. It had a reciculatin filtered oil heating system and he went on a tangent of idiocy.

We tested it, it had nothing left in it additive wise.

I asked the Supervisor why they didn't just tell him to change it or do it themselves. Its more trouble that its worth he answered. He retires in a couple of years and we will change it then.

This was a huge engine, about 1 Mw power, but a slow one at 450 or 900 rpm as I recall (slower the engine the bigger it gets)

Dumb application and in the top of a 5 story building (Down she goes when the ear4hquake hits and lots of dead people).

First for backup power that is what 1800 Rpm generaros are for and you don't put them in the top of the building (unless its a little 4 or 6 cylinder engine and then its still bad idea unless its gas (getting fuel to them is no fun)
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by chaos2 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:37 pm

A little off topic but I see Briggs & Stratton is selling small mower engines with no oil change recommended for the life of the engine.
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Re: Conclusion-Synthetics are the best to use in Urals

Post by CarlS » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:35 pm

chaos2 wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:37 pm
A little off topic but I see Briggs & Stratton is selling small mower engines with no oil change recommended for the life of the engine.
I had not seen that. I guess they figure the mower will wear out, rust out, break before the engine wears out.
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