ethanol question

Are ya having a problem with your rig? We'll try to help. Share your tech tips and experiences here. Dr. Billy Glaser, author of the "Unofficial 750 Ural Service Manual" site myural.com, is moderating this section.
Forum rules
Here is the place for you to ask questions about or share your experiences about servicing or repairing your Ural or Dnepr. Please post topics concering modifications or accesories in the "Modifications and Acessories" section. Please post oil related questions in the "Oil Threads" section.
User avatar
:FI:Igor
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:32 pm
Location: Near Dothan, AL 36375

Re: ethanol question

Post by :FI:Igor » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:48 am

I think the canned 4-stroke gas is for emergency storage in your vehicle trunk for if you run out of gas. No leaks, no smell, no mess. When I bought my new chain saw the dealer recommended the canned two-stroke gas with the oil already mixed; but he also mentioned that you can make it yourself from premium no ethanol gas and two stroke oil (a lot cheaper).
2015 Ural Patrol (Светлана)
2006 HD Low Rider (sold)
2013 Ural Patrol 'Ursula' (2015 Totaled!)

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2175
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: ethanol question

Post by RC20 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:46 pm

Lastly, I seem to see a pattern in anti-ethanol bias from a particular group of riders.
It seems people that live in the PNW, park outside regularly, ride a lot in the rain or let bike sit long periods seem to have more "ethanol issues."
I suspect that there is more water ingestion either at the air box or gas tank cap than from ethanol.
You ought to see the snow blower forums, they love so called True Fuel.

I have no issue with Ethanol, glad I don't live in Washington state because I like 37 mpg.

We have clean air in Anchorage now due to modern cars and ethanol.

Reporting a drop in MPG higher than you think it should be is not anti ethanol, its fact. It won't affect me other than winter riding and I can store some summer fuel up if I want to but its a very small aspect in total riding.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
windmill
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 8347
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:17 am
Location: Kent, Wa 98042

Re: ethanol question

Post by windmill » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:29 pm

RC20 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:46 pm
You ought to see the snow blower forums,

It never would have occurred to me there was such a thing, but I guess I'm not surprised either.

https://www.snowblowerforum.com/

Learning something new every day.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018/20 M70

User avatar
Desantnik-VDV
Comrade General
Comrade General
Posts: 842
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:21 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: ethanol question

Post by Desantnik-VDV » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:44 am

Who knows, a lawn mower forum may exist as well. :D
Alex
2007 GearUp - BMD (Боевая Машина Десанта)

The rest is just history.

User avatar
BinDerSmokDat
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 3696
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 2:35 pm
Location: South Jersey NJTP exit 6

Re: ethanol question

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:41 am

codemonkey001 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:41 pm
You joke about two stroke gas. A while back I was at a store in my old hometown and they were selling shrinkwrapped just-under-a-gallon cans of 4 cycle fuel.
I have a friend who has just over an acre of property with lots of trees.
Being a true city slicker he's "worried about trees coming down" and he wants to pay a guy to cut them all down.

I told him to leave them alone, none are in danger of coming down on the house and they are easier to remove once they come down, versus paying an arborist in a bucket truck or climbing spikes to take them down.
I told him just get a good chainsaw so he can clear a path or even take care of small ones himself.

He said and I quote "Uggh, I'll cut my arm off and you have to mess with mixing oil with the gas, no thanks." :roll:
So that product is for people who equate having to mix two stroke oil on par with losing a limb. :lol:

I have some stuff that runs on 1:40 ratio and some that runs on 1:50 ratio.
My fix is just to whip up a 2 gallon batch of 1:40 and use it for everything.
The 1:50 stuff will smoke a teensy bit more, but it's never been an issue.

User avatar
BinDerSmokDat
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 3696
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 2:35 pm
Location: South Jersey NJTP exit 6

Re: ethanol question

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:52 am

Tool #1: Automobile manufacturers on closed courses (meaning they consistently cover a precisely measured distance, stop at the same places simulating traffic stops for the same amount of time each lap) and who have onboard equipment monitoring dozens of engine parameters INCLUDING ACTUAL FUEL VOLUME USED, and atmospheric temps, get in the 3-4% range.

Tool #2: Recording fuel usage in a notebook, with different fuel pumps, different fuel sources with pumps with different shut-off points when the tank is "full" with slightly different calibrated volumes delivered and your WIDELY variable driving routes, traffic conditions and temps.

Tool #1 is like using calipers to measure machining tolerances.
Tool #2 is like using a ruler with 1/8" markings to measure machining tolerances.

With Tool #2 the degree of variability (or "noise" for those with a statistical process background) is greater than the resolution your tool has the capacity to measure.

The other thing is bias.
Unless you have someone else fill up your tank and you don't know what fuel you are running you will have a bias. If fuel economy is a little low and you have an anti-ethanol bias you chalk it up to running ethanol, not the stop and go traffic you got stuck in last Thursday towing your anvil collection.
There was a test of E15 versus ethanol-free gas done by a snowmobile manufacturers done a few years back.
It was blind, the riders didn't know what was in their tanks and they rode multiple rigs with E15 and with ethanol-free.
After all of the empirical evaluation was done, they asked each rider to pick the rides they thought had ethanol-free.
They also asked them to state why they thought that ride was ethanol free and they gave reasons like best throttle response, acceleration etc.
To a rider they all picked the E15 rigs.

Want a really bunch of people anally obsessed with mileage WAY more than than you?
Go to a hyepermiler forum, where these guys remove the passenger side view mirror or put an air dam on their minivan to get a few tenths bump in MPG.
They use OBD tools on their daily commutes and know how much their fuel tank gauges are off because they measure actual amounts of fuel injected into the engine versus what the gauge says.
Some won't listen to rock music in the cars because it makes them drive more aggressively, hence using more fuel.

Know what they all say?
E10 probably gets about 3-4% less mpg, but all the aforementioned noise makes it really hard to be sure.

User avatar
Pterodactyl
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

Re: ethanol question

Post by Pterodactyl » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:55 pm

To equal the potential energy in 1 volume (a gallon for instance) of gasoline it takes 1.5 volumes of ethanol. If you do the math it comes out to replacing 10% of a gallon of gasoline with ethanol will reduce the potential energy in the gallon by 4%. Seems to fit the observed reduction in MPG of 3-4%.
Kevin
The Outpost, Silver City, MT
2018 Ural Gear Up, 2017 R1200GSA

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2175
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: ethanol question

Post by RC20 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:25 pm

Tool #1 is like using calipers to measure machining tolerances.
Tool #2 is like using a ruler with 1/8" markings to measure machining tolerances.
This is not a diesel fuel injection system component that has to fit down to the .0001. And no, the baseline is not perfect but it does not have to be. That is what an average is for and does. It nulls out variables. What is astonishing is when you remove Ethanol , how stable the MPG is on the 2019. 36 worst and 38 best (a couple of times 39 and one pushing almost 40, that was a long descending route out of a pass)

Also keep in mind, I was shocked at the dramatic departure in MPG. I had 8 fill ups when I hit that (roughly).

I am not anti ethanol, in fact its been a friend back in the day of carburetor and carb ice (which I got more than once on my cycles)

Its a major contributor to giving us clean air. I have exactly the opposite of an ethanol bias and I think the people who go nuts over it and seek out non ethanol winter fuel for snow blower use are crazy, the components in those were designed to deal with it 20 years ago.

In fact my 99 Yamaha blower has run on it since the started putting it in fuel. Forget the date, we initially had MTBE (now that is some serious ugly crapola)

What fuel mix was used to test the Ural?

And I was not born yesterday. I had a 4.5 gallon tank on the Nighthawks S, I live in AK where fuel stations can be sparse and I have been running cycle MPG seriously since (and I watched it before). I did not jump to a conclusion on Ethanol , I kept taking and continue to take data.

You can blow all the Smoke you want, I know data, I know how to take it and I know when there is a confirmation of data to the question, is that the variable affecting it.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
windmill
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 8347
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:17 am
Location: Kent, Wa 98042

Re: ethanol question

Post by windmill » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:43 pm

Nobody is questioning the milage you got, just your belief that it's fully attributed to ethanol. The drop you experienced was probably the recognized 3% to 4%, and the other 6% to 7% the variables such as speed, incline, wind, temperature, fuel quality, and correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you having an issue with a sensor?
You mentioned a normal range of 36 to 40 MPG, that's a 11% variation before ethanol is even a consideration.

I'm not pro or anti ethanol, I do wish it wasn't used but it is, so I accept it. I gave it a serious try over an extended period, against hope the EPA data was confirmed.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018/20 M70

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2175
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: ethanol question

Post by RC20 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:32 pm

No, what I said was the variance was 36 to 38 with a couple of outliers, one of 39, one of 39.8 (that was when the Ethanol got diluted down to nothing and the previous nice level not wind 55 mph country run of 33 MPG.

And I do carry an HP calculator with me, from my engineering days, you know, RPN?

I was not locked in on Ethanol as a convicted MPG dropper, it was noted as a possible factor. In fact initially I though the one pass profile was the factor.

In fact it was a stark book end. Ethanol and it dropped to 33 mpg and no Ethanol and it was 37 (or a tad better).

When I got back to Anchorage I established a kind of baseline of run profiles of city and highway mix, 37. First fill with Ethanol in the winter fuel, down to 33 mpg.

Most of the time it was smack on 37, not an average, a standard fill number.

If there were unusual conditions that was noted. Headwinds, different climb and decent profiles.

The other outlier was a 36 mpg in nasty headwinds.

Now granted, I was really sloppy about it. I only calculated down to a tenth and I filled the tank to as close to exactly the same level as humanly possible. I assume most are aware you can see the fuel level in the little cup thingy?

The Ethanol affect in my machine appears to have some factor of snap over to it. I had probably 1/4 tank when I diluted the w@$#ing State mix in Haines. It went away as a factor as the next run was pushing 40 mpg (39.8 as I recall).

Ahh well, bet wrap it up.

I am sure Copernicus felt same way.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
jaybird
Order of Suvarov
Order of Suvarov
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:41 am
Location: The foothills of the Forked River Mountains, West Barnegat NJ (Do It In The Pines!) 08005

Re: ethanol question

Post by jaybird » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:15 am

Eh, my tank gets empty, I fill it up.
I’m kind of out in the boondocks, so the added distance and inconvenience to purchase “special” fuel certainty cancels out a couple or a few miles per gallon.
If I have to worry about a couple of miles per gallon I’m going to stay home or get a more efficient vehicle.
I haven’t noticed any difference in performance but I have had trouble with “goop” and “water” in carburetor bowls.
The best gasoline related tip I’ve received recently is in regards to not buying premium grade gas in small quantity’s (like the tank of a motorcycle) because you’re most likely getting a pipe and hose full of regular gas from the previous sale, that and my rigs seem to run just fine on regular anyway.
That, and there are too many people in the world.

Happy trails,
Jaybird
2005 Gear-Up, Mr. Nat_ural 108,000+ Kilometers and counting
2013 Retro, Black beauty, AKA Lucky "13"
1995 Olive Tourist
1975 Enfield Diesel Bullet
2008 Enfield Bullet 500
1974 BMW R 75/6
Etc.

User avatar
bgenest
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Just Outside Boston, MA

Re: ethanol question

Post by bgenest » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:37 am

jaybird wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:15 am

That, and there are too many people in the world.

Happy trails,
Jaybird
Got that right.
2015 Burgundy Patrol "Stickee Monkee"

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2175
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: ethanol question

Post by RC20 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:29 pm

Eh, my tank gets empty, I fill it up.
I’m kind of out in the boondocks, so the added distance and inconvenience to purchase “special” fuel certainty cancels out a couple or a few miles per gallon.
If I have to worry about a couple of miles per gallon I’m going to stay home or get a more efficient vehicle.
Well lets put it this way. Anchorage to Glennallen is 179 miles. 40 mpg and I can make it fine. 33 mpg and I come up short.

Note: There are NO gas stations the last 50 miles. So yes it does make a different planning wise. So, a stop up 40 miles North to top up.

Its not the MPG, its the size of the tank.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
jaybird
Order of Suvarov
Order of Suvarov
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:41 am
Location: The foothills of the Forked River Mountains, West Barnegat NJ (Do It In The Pines!) 08005

Re: ethanol question

Post by jaybird » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:18 pm

RC20 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:29 pm
Eh, my tank gets empty, I fill it up.
I’m kind of out in the boondocks, so the added distance and inconvenience to purchase “special” fuel certainty cancels out a couple or a few miles per gallon.
If I have to worry about a couple of miles per gallon I’m going to stay home or get a more efficient vehicle.
Well lets put it this way. Anchorage to Glennallen is 179 miles. 40 mpg and I can make it fine. 33 mpg and I come up short.

Note: There are NO gas stations the last 50 miles. So yes it does make a different planning wise. So, a stop up 40 miles North to top up.

Its not the MPG, its the size of the tank.
Well that’s what they make auxiliary tanks, Gerry cans, and camp fuel canisters for. Even here in New Jersey, where I’m sure the gas stations are closer together, I always carry extra fuel and keep some on hand in my garage.
Fuel efficiency is probably at the bottom of the list of reasons for why I own and operate these dogs.

Happy trails,
Jaybird
2005 Gear-Up, Mr. Nat_ural 108,000+ Kilometers and counting
2013 Retro, Black beauty, AKA Lucky "13"
1995 Olive Tourist
1975 Enfield Diesel Bullet
2008 Enfield Bullet 500
1974 BMW R 75/6
Etc.

DisplacedYooper
Comrade
Comrade
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:08 am

Re: ethanol question

Post by DisplacedYooper » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:35 pm

My 2¢,
I always buy Non Ethanol gas,
AND, if it's a single hose pump, I pump the 1st gallon into the aux. 5 Liter can, then when I get home, empty the 5 liter can into the newer model DD.
Corn Squeezin's are Not your engine's friend

Post Reply