Update: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

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Update: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by backpacks_got_jets » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:31 am

2007 Tourist.

History: Initial problem started with a terrifying screech and my ignition rotor ripping itself apart. Rotor installed. Bike running again.

Right now I have a whine coming out of the engine.

- Video is a$$ but the sound is present in it. https://i.imgur.com/Ak9NcJr.mp4

From the facebook page I got that it could be:

1 - Lashing needs adjustment
2 - Bearing on the alternator

Can also be evil spirits caught in the engine. I'm leaning toward this possibility.

My biggest issue is my bike has been sitting at "A friend of a friend of a friend's garage" who is a harley mechanic and he's been helpful but im ready for the bike to be home.

1 - What could the whine be?

2 - Do you think it's driveable in it's current state? I really want to get it out of this dude's garage and at least put it back in my own place again until i can get to the bottom of it.
Last edited by backpacks_got_jets on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by WEGUNTER » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:42 am

Based on what you described, I would not drive it. Not sure how a Ducatti ignition rotor could tear itself apart but that sounds serious. Did you set the timing after you reinstalled the rotor and ignition? Guess I would do two things: Mark the side of your alternator so you can put it back in the same position as it is now. Pull the alternator and take a look at the alternator gear. Good chance you may have to replace the alternator bearings and krytox them. Also with the alternator out rotate your crank around while inspecting your cam gear teeth.

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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by backpacks_got_jets » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:02 pm

Follow up to this

I'm not the handiest person in the world but I'm capable if given instructions.

Comments like "It could be X Y or Z" are incredibly helpful but I'm terrible at finding the correct parts or finding instruction on how to accomplish the goals so if there are links to the proper parts to buy or replace or links to instructional walkthroughs or videos that would be super.

Also if anyone knows a good Ural mechanic (ural dude or business) in Connecticut that would cut out a lot of hair pulling on my part.

Everyone says "Oh yeah I work on bikes all the time" and whenever I bring up the Ural it's a head scratcher.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by propwash » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:14 pm

Could be as simple as a dry timed breather. Remove or break off breather hose and squirt a little oil in there. Start and hope.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:21 pm

It appears to have the Denso alternator with the "adapter" housing in front that contains the cush drive (?), there are two bearings supporting the forward gear shaft, these have been known to seize and spin the outer race(s), creating a horrible squealing noise.

In the following video, he says (at around 8:30) either it's crankcase breather rotary valve or alternator adapter bearings, a previous workshop had butchered the timing cover trying to get it off, thinking it's breather valve, but actually it was alternator bearings.



by Heindl Engineering

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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:24 pm

As propwash said if it's dry breather valve you usually only need squirt some oil down it, not strip it all out! :o
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by WEGUNTER » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm

My concern would be the comment 'the ignition rotor tore itself apart" that happened for a reason. easy to tell if the alternator is the problem, pull it and take a look at it. If you do not feel confident enough to diagnose it yourself you can take the alternator to a shop and have them look at it.

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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by Claus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:09 pm

First of all: Check alternator adapter for unproper aligning:
Losen two M10 nuts left and right of the alternator (17mm wrench) but don´t take them off. Turn whole alternator counter clock wise to get more gear backlash and lock two nuts again. To get it done somehow in the field, losen nuts, start engine ,turn alternator CCW until only a soft whining left, fasten nuts.
In fact, the gear backlash has to be set up to 0,2 ...0,3 mm on any flywheel position. To get it right, you´ve got to move the alternator rotor back and forth while tapping the crank shaft with the kicker lever gently. If it´s a Denso alternator, you can take the alternator off the adapter and grab the adapter connecting wheel to set it up. After you´ve got it right, mark the adapter and the engine housing with a punch mark to know where it should be and mount alternator. This should allow to set it right after removing the alternator.
Prior to removing alternator you should disconnect your battery to avoid a short.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by Snakeoil » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:40 pm

The noise in the Heindl vid does not sound like the same noise in the OP's vid.

Regarding the adapter bearing failures, I've mentioned this before, but I think there is a design flaw in that adapter. I noticed it when I took mine apart during a troubleshooting expedition. What I found was that the shaft is a press fit into the bearings and the bearings are a press fit into the adapter housing. This means that it is practically impossible to assemble the adapter and know if you have overly preloaded the bearings. There is no need for the shaft to press fit into the bearings. It is captured by the assembly. And there is nothing trying to push the shaft out of the bearings in operation. I polished my shaft to a precise slip fit into the bearings. I believe if that is how they were all built, bearing failures in the adapter would be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

The whine in the video does not sound terribly different than other video's I've heard of properly running Ural engines. But I will admit that it sounds a lot like mine did which made me dig deeper when it got louder and found a bad front main due to a bent crank.
If you have a main bearing failing, it will simply get louder and louder until it will be painful to listen to.

I am not familiar with the Ducati ignition so have no mental picture of the rotor. Why it would "tear itself apart" does make me wonder. But it could just be it failed on its own and it is unrelated to the whine the OP is concerned about. So, that aside, I'd say you can rid the rig back to your place.

Regarding shops local to you, I'd suggest you find an aftermarket BMW shop. They may have worked on other Urals. Plus, /2 BMW engines are very similar in design. There is always Ural New England. But they won't be cheap. Will probably try to convince you to trade yours in on one of their used bikes. They will then fix yours and resell.

Nova Cycles in Turners Falls, MA works on vintage bikes. The co-owner Peter has a Ural. But I think it has a BMW engine. You can call them and see what it would cost for them to take a look and give you a diagnosis.

If you have a main bearing going south, the next question is why? Could be just a bearing failure. But could also be a bent crank. This could get expensive.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:00 pm

We need more input from PO.

But both Heindl and Claus say "check alternator coupler first" :D

TBH I couldn't hear much of whichever noise we're supposed to be hearing in either video – but using laptop speakers Image
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by backpacks_got_jets » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:19 pm

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:00 pm
We need more input from PO.

But both Heindl and Claus say "check alternator coupler first" :D
IDK what else to tell everyone about it. I'm happy to answer any other questions.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by WEGUNTER » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:11 pm

OK. Here is a question for you. Tell us more about the rotor. what exactly tore apart? You had a single piece rotor in there. Are you saying it broke in half? Did you whining noise happen around the same time or later? Did you look at your gear tower when you did your ignition

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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by backpacks_got_jets » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:30 pm

WEGUNTER wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:11 pm
OK. Here is a question for you. Tell us more about the rotor. what exactly tore apart? You had a single piece rotor in there. Are you saying it broke in half? Did you whining noise happen around the same time or later? Did you look at your gear tower when you did your ignition
Long story short

I rode the bike almost daily through the spring and summer.

In September on a normal daily ride I heard a soft knock in the engine. A single knock one every few miles probably. Not even a "hear" more of a "felt" the knock. Not like a slamming but just a light bump. a "i should probably check on that" feeling but it gave me no other mechanical trouble. I check the oil when I get to my destination. Everything seems fine.

About 3/4 of the way back home the knock probably doubled in speed but no harder in force. I was like 2 miles from my house so I figured I'd diagnose it when i got home since I was already on the bike for about 50 miles.

I stop and fill up, about a mile after i filled up the knock started getting aggressive and a screeching on the bike like metal on metal happened.

I pulled over and let the enigne cool off. First thought because of the knock was low oil which terrified me. I checked and the oil plug was finger loose so I thought my oil had drained out without me knowing.

I check and the oil level is fine. While the bike was cooling off I went and got new oil anyway and changed it in the parking lot I was in just for shits.

I start it up and it runs but still has the metallic squeal. run it for about a quarter mile and the engine dies. Still electrical turn over but no combustion.

I take a look and the shaft of the ignition rotor cup had broken off of the cup so i basically had a cup with a hole in it and the shaft as separate pieces. I assumed the metal on metal noise i heard was some sort of friction on the rotor cup which heated up too much for it to handle and it broke into two parts.

I didn't disassemble the engine any more than that because I felt I had found the obvious failure point and I wasn't confident enough then that if i too the engine apart I'd be able to put it back together.

I replaced the rotor cup and had the timing checked. Everything seems to be working now mechanically and to be frank, I haven't had the bike for so long that i can't remember if that noise was a part of my normal engine sounds before the event or not.
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by VWK75S » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:09 am

backpacks_got_jets wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:30 pm
i basically had a cup with a hole in it and the shaft as separate pieces.
When you removed the old one was the center mounting screw loose?
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Re: Finally Got it started. Weird noise. Need advice.

Post by URALNUT60 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:11 am

Know you probably don't want to hear this. But probably good time to freshen the motor! Smokey history on the bike plus it is winter. Find out if ever any problems with big end bearings and who manufacturer was, if good jap bearings and rods feel good maybe don't have to remove crank, just replace rear seal with viton oil seal, if rods feel loose have qualified machinist check crank for true and rods for play, check cyl bore for roundness piston clearance new cross hatch and set of rings, have valve stem to guide clearance checked and valves lapped in, pull front cover inspect timing gears and breather for gaulding, when reapplying coat with grease or assembly lube, if you replace crank bearings don't forget front cam bearing also! Remove oil pump for cleaning and inspection, ignition and alt parts and all engine parts should be carefully inspected!!! Check clutch plates and springs and replace as necessary and all related parts, CONSIDER THE PRODUCT AND HISTORY! 2007 better than 1997 but still not bullet proof! Increase your chances of more miles and smiles when spring rolls around! Good luck!

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