Ignition issues (thought was carb issues) . Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

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Snakeoil
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:00 pm

Hmm, explain. With points on these things, you set these statically at the firing position for a maximum possible advance.
You took me out of context. Do you work for a newspaper?

Here is the entire statement.
If you have points, you need some advance at idle. Most ignitions run at some amount of advance, ie X deg BTDC. How it is achieved depends on the ignition type.
The OP said he had the points set at 0 deg., which is TDC. With that setting, at idle, engine would run in a retarded condition. Actually would run in a retarded condition thru the rev range unless the Ural points ignition starts to advance as soon as the engine starts to turn so that there is some auto-advance put into the timing at idle.

So, for a Ural with points, I would expect the points at idle to open at around 5 deg BTDC. At idle, any centrifugal advance should not be advancing yet. So, to set the point where the points open at 5 deg BTDC, there is usually a mark on the flywheel that is 5 deg BTDC and identified in some way. On early Hondas, they mark that point with an F to indicate firing and that is the mark one uses to static time the engine.

So, if I read your statement correctly, you are saying that you static time a Ural at maximum advance? That leads me to believe that there is no centrifugal advance on a Ural with points. I struggle with that. First, because it would cause the engine to kick back violently when kick started. Second, It would ping like crazy when under load at mid to low RPM. And lastly, I cannot think of any engine with points that does not have a method to increase the advance with increasing RPM. Before centrifugal advances, the spark was advance manually.

So, please explain how you static time a Ural at full advance and have it run properly. Do you lock the AAU in full advance position and set to a mark on the flywheel?
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Rob
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by BillyG » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:09 pm

That ignition has what I call a “D” washer (two flat sides and round sides) under the bolt that holds the rotor to the camshaft. The D washer flat sides will get wallowed out from beating back and forth on the cam. This will give you a “wandering” timing causing anything from a slight miss feeling while riding to bucking and farting it complete shutdown depending on how wallowed out the flats get. If you can grab the cylindrical rotor, twist it back and forth and feel slop/play. You found your problem. It should be tight. Remove and examine even if it feels snug. If the flat sides are the least bit wallowed...a new D washer is the cure. They used to be like hen’s teeth to find. Someone a long while back made a batch...maybe there’s a stash somewhere.
Bill Glaser
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by BillyG » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:15 pm

Also, the two opposed rods/slugs swaged into the rotor have a penchant for coming loose and/or sling off which will cause poor running to stoppage. If one shucks off...use epoxy to remount it to the rotor.
Bill Glaser
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300,000 km's since May 1st 2002
The "Unofficial Ural Service Manual" can be viewed at: http://www.myural.com

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:37 pm

I have a similar rotor arrangement on my 2000 Tourist. And just as BillyG described, the washer was wallowed out and loose as well and timing was all over the place. It ran, but ran poorly.

My fix was to carefully repair the area on the washer with a ball peen hammer until it fit tight on the rotor. I then machined a washer that would squeeze the rotor to the shaft to give it a truly snug fit based upon face friction. That was about back when I first joined the forum and it still runs like a Swiss watch (knocking on wood here).
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Rob
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by propwash » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:01 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:00 pm
You took me out of context. Do you work for a newspaper?

Here is the entire statement.

If you have points, you need some advance at idle. Most ignitions run at some amount of advance, ie X deg BTDC. How it is achieved depends on the ignition type.
Bite me.

There is a firing mark BTDC (both Ural and Dnepr), where one statically sets the points. There is no need to over think the situation. The interrupter will advance the system as RPMs increase, up to a point. With flywheel positioned with the firing mark visible in the peep, adjust such the points open just as the weights on the interrupter reach maximum travel. Thats it. No need for paragraph after paragraph after...

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by adampl884 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:32 pm

I will definitely take a look at the rotor and washer, as even if there is a tiny fault it will do no harm making everything perfect. At least then it will remove possible variables for things being broken!
I have ordered a new ignition kit (type 3) hopefully once I've fitted that and checked everything else, especially swapping the carbs over to see if that changes anything, I should be a little closer to finding the problem! Ignition sounds more and more right the more I think about it because when it has run in the past it would misfire frequently on journeys any longer than 5-10 minutes so would suggest it begins to fail once heated up. (although it wouldn't even run for 5 now!)
Will update once that's arrived and been fitted.
Messing with the timing is a little beyond me and my capabilities at the moment, I just follow the instructions on myural.com to play it safe!
Once again thank you all for all your help and suggestions, this is a truly great platform :)
Have you tried turning it off and on again
1992 Ural 650
Near Oxford UK

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:27 pm

propwash wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:01 pm
Snakeoil wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:00 pm
You took me out of context. Do you work for a newspaper?

Here is the entire statement.

If you have points, you need some advance at idle. Most ignitions run at some amount of advance, ie X deg BTDC. How it is achieved depends on the ignition type.
Bite me.

There is a firing mark BTDC (both Ural and Dnepr), where one statically sets the points. There is no need to over think the situation. The interrupter will advance the system as RPMs increase, up to a point. With flywheel positioned with the firing mark visible in the peep, adjust such the points open just as the weights on the interrupter reach maximum travel. Thats it. No need for paragraph after paragraph after...
I can see you are annoyed. No surprise. The OP said timing was set at 0 deg. That is not the firing mark. That is TDC. You obviously have reading comprehension problems. You might consider adult education courses. They also offer anger management. Every site seems to have someone like you.

Don't like my paragraphs, don't read them. I sure as Hell don't write them for you. Why would I. YOU KNOW EVERYTHING!!!
Regards,
Rob
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40 Pilots, 122 Mains
Before you say something stupid, always ask yourself, "What would Harpo say?".

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Claus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:01 am

Snakeoil wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:00 pm

The OP said he had the points set at 0 deg., which is TDC. With that setting, at idle, engine would run in a retarded condition. Actually would run in a retarded condition thru the rev range unless the Ural points ignition starts to advance as soon as the engine starts to turn so that there is some auto-advance put into the timing at idle.

So, for a Ural with points, I would expect the points at idle to open at around 5 deg BTDC. At idle, any centrifugal advance should not be advancing yet. So, to set the point where the points open at 5 deg BTDC, there is usually a mark on the flywheel that is 5 deg BTDC and identified in some way. On early Hondas, they mark that point with an F to indicate firing and that is the mark one uses to static time the engine.
Correct. The 650 Urals have a static timing mark that comes through the timing hole first and after that the TDC mark. The static timing mark was designed for the first type of electronic ignition (like the OP has shown in his pictures). On these fly wheels there is no advance timing mark.
What I always do with points and condenser ignitions is to get the ADVANCE mark into the timing hole and set the timing with completely advanced flyweights. This has only one reason: I don´t trust Dnepr and Harley poinrts ignitions anymore. I dont´t want the ignition to advance more than allowed.
It must stop at the advance mark.
Result could be a timing offset in idle, where I can live with. Most of the times it is a bit retard and that´s ok. If it´s to much advanced, it will kick back when starting, that´s not ok.
Very often I have set the points to static timing mark and experienced a 5 or 10 deg advance beyond advance timing mark, that´s why I set like described above.
To do so, one has to make his own advance timing mark at 72mm before TDC mark. on flywheel (2.83 "). So the timing setup can be done easy and it can be checked with a stobe light to be really safe.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Rod » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:28 am

Claus, would that 72mm distance for advance timing be the same on an MT11 flywheel do you know?
Dnepr MT11 owner for last 25 years

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Claus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Rod, it should be about the same. Could differ though. Clutch plates are the same but completely different fly wheel.
But on a Dnepr flywheel you should find an advance mark. They had one because they were delivered with points ignition only.
You should find the mark at around 36° before TDC (or around 70 mm) and it should be marked with a P.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Snakeoil » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:56 pm

Claus,

Since the timing mark you just mentioned in your response to Rod is at 36 deg BTDC, I assume this is intended to be used with a timing light and the engine at some number of RPM that represents when the ignition is at full advance. Yes? Or do you lock the advance weights in full advance and static time it at that mark?

Thanks
Regards,
Rob
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Claus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:22 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:56 pm
Or do you lock the advance weights in full advance and static time it at that mark?
Rob, that´s what it´s designed for and that´s what I do when I set static timing on points ignitions. The russians (and Ukrainians) very seldom had a strobe light in the 80ies and early 90ies. They were lucky when they had a pack of BELOMOR KANAL cigarettes :mrgreen: .
Of course it´s perfect to test it with a strobe light, if you´ve got one.

In my Dnepr manual it is described to set ignition at "retard" timing mark with closed weights. But in that position you´re never shure what happens at full advance, as the weights hang all over the place, the springs are somewhat untrue. Once you lock them in full advance, all parts are at their final position, resulting in maximum advance. Under normal conditions full advance should be arrived at appr 3000 rpm. In reality I don´t care at what revs this happens as long as it stops at advance timing mark.

(on BMW, Guzzi and Harley I try to bend the weight-bumpers and get correct springs to really get it on spot. Forget it with Dnepr... :lol: )



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owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Rod » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:50 pm

Claus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:36 pm
Rod, it should be about the same. Could differ though. Clutch plates are the same but completely different fly wheel.
But on a Dnepr flywheel you should find an advance mark. They had one because they were delivered with points ignition only.
You should find the mark at around 36° before TDC (or around 70 mm) and it should be marked with a P.
Thanks Claus - sorry, I'm being a dummkopf, just remembered that when I set up the points to the timing mark its with the bob weights fully extended - i.e. at the full advance position - I was always stupid, but now I'm old & stupid!
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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Desantnik-VDV » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 pm

Claus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:22 pm
BELOMOR KANAL cigarettes :mrgreen: .

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Claus, make it papirossen :lol:
Dneprs are like non filter papirosen. You got to bend something.
Alex
2007 GearUp - БМД (Боевая Машина Десанта)

The rest is just a History:
2014 Ural M70
1998 Honda f6 GL 1500 Valkyrie Tourer /Champion Escort sidecar
1999 Ural Deco Classic/BMW R100 engine
1980 BMW R100RT (2nd Heart Donor for 1999 Deco for more HP)
1983 BMW R80/7 (1st Heart Donor for 1999 Deco)
2002 Ural Barberian Classic
2003 Honda Shadow ACE
1999 Ural BC (went to US circus in Tokyo to adapt a bear driver)

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Re: Carb/ Valve issues. Very poor running, misfiring, backfiring and stalling out and more...

Post by Claus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:02 pm

Desantnik-VDV wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 pm
Claus, make it papirossen :lol:
You´re right. Of course papirossen.I brought cartons full of them from Russia when I went there as a truck driver during the early 90ies. I was given them by good people who wanted to make a present to me. I stored them in the fridge for years and every time we had visitors and a couple of drinks I got them out and offered them generously :mrgreen: Very funny faces I saw :lol:
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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