1999 650. Only firing one plug

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by URALNUT60 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:39 am

I would forward pics to Terry he might be able to give you some insight

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:30 am

Oil film in cylinder did exist. There was oil in the valve cover when I removed it as well as a small amount of metal swaf but nothing too concerning considering the run time since the overhaul. Just tried to phone Terry and the call wouldn't go through. Seems the line is disconnected for some reason. :| Ill try again in a bit.

Anyone else have a suggestion? I see cylinder and piston sets on eBay from Belarus but I don't want to order anything from anyone without knowing it will correct this issue completely. If there is a compatibility issue with internal parts this will just happen again.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:59 am

Emails sent to Terry but no response yet. I tried calling again this morning and his phone is still disconnected. I hope he is alright. I spoke with him briefly on Friday and he seemed like a really nice guy. Has anyone else talked to him this week?

I need to get a plan together quickly because I can only sustain the loss on this bike for about a month. Anyone else have any suggestions about what happened here and what parts will correct this? I'm a master mechanic with $60k in tools but if I can't source the correct parts the bike is as good as scrap. :o

I can mic the cylinders and even have them overbored, but I need to know what piston/ring combo is correct.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by rivers » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:16 am

Try Gene at Holopaw's in FL.for parts. https://uralofholopaw.com/index.html
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:37 am

Just called him he was a big help. He says he has pistons and used cylinders. Next step is to find out why the cylinder scored. Gene wants me to remove all of the rings and see if one is broken.

The machine shop I initially used called just before that and complained the job was too small and told me to come and get my head. :D I guess I wont be bringing them both cylinders and the other head. Found a shop that is more bike friendly Ill try. A friend recommended them from the work they did on his panhead so these should be no problem.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Snakeoil » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:54 pm

A few comments based on what you have posted so far.

First, finding oversized pistons with quality rings for a 650 can be a challenge. If your pistons are okay, I'd suggest standard sized cylinders, from Gene or Terry and new quality rings. Give the replacement jugs a quick hit with a coarse hone so the new rings will seat and be done with it.

Looking at the pics, my guess is one of two things happened. The wrist pin moved at some point in the life of the engine and somebody put it back in place, installed a new circlip and called it a day. Might have reused the aluminum head gasket and that is why it failed. The grooves in the jug would have allowed oil to pump into the combustion area. Your carbon deposits look shiny. It was burning oil. The funny part is the intake valve has deposits and the exhaust is clean. I would have expected the opposite. You may have a worn intake valve guide dumping more oil into that jug.

Looking at the pic of the piston, it's not really easy to see exactly how it looks. But it looks like something went into the intake and into the combustion chamber. I cannot envision a top ring being bent. They simply break. But it looks like something is distorted on that ring. It that aluminum from the top land of the piston stuck to the ring? If so, I suspect you may have swallowed something in addition to the perceived wrist pin damage in the cylinder.

Needing the rig back up and running in 1 month is a challenge, unless Gene and Terry have what you need. Before you plop down more money on this beast, make sure your big end bearing are in good shape. I know you said it has a new crank. That means new rods and pistons too because they all come as an assembly. So, since you found questionable damage in your jug, I would be suspect of any other work done on the engine. Put an indicator on the crank and make sure it runs true.

I'm going to PM you with some other comments.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 am

I made the jig as suggested by MyUral and pressed out the wristpin. It worked surprisingly well, save for me pressing just a hair too far and lodging the wristpin in the PVC. Fortunately steel is harder than PVC. No harm done. :D

Anyhow, final diagnosis time. The bottom oil control ring was bent on inspection. It found it's way out of the ring land and wore the grooves into the bore. This is why the scoring damage does not extend the length of the cylinder. This is also why I was still producing 85psi compression. It just wasn't compressing anything until the top third of the bore. 85 isn't horrible, but it's not enough to produce complete combustion. It certainly wasn't enough compared to the ~135 on the other side.

Piston crown showing excessive carbon buildup for the amount of use. Oil consumption.
20190604_205221.jpg
Lower oil ring that is distorted. The rings had been rotated around as I had been working, but had not been removed from the lands yet. Certainly nothing that would have distorted the ring, at least.
20190604_205502.jpg
Now it's just up to the machine shop to tell me what has to be done to clean the bores up, and then finding out if oversized pistons can be had or if new cylinders are in order.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by URALNUT60 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:01 am

+1 pull motor out of frame and touch every part, then you know what you have, pain but you will be happy

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:18 pm

.010 overbore pistons, rings, and snap rings coming from Holopaw tomorrow. Going to look at a storage unit tomorrow morning to see if it will work as an overhaul space. When I pull the left side cylinder Ill see how it looks. If I don't like what I see I'm going to chew on going all the way down to the big bearings and replacing with Japanese.

Once it's together and reliable to my liking I may pass it on and put the proceeds down on a brand new GearUp with a 3 year warranty. I'm gonna lose my a$$, but nobody in history has ever made a dime on a bike they intend to actually ride. :lol: Maybe it will finally get sorted out on it's 4th attempt at life.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:05 pm

Update to thread. Pistons arrived from Holopaw. I don't like.

Taking some information from the Facebook group, I ordered an entire top end set minus heads from Russian Garage including the head and carburetor studs. 2 weeks out.

The only thing I will need to do is find base studs that are a bit longer, and MyUral does not have a procedure explained to replace the brass bushings in the small ends. If anyone has any suggestions, that would be helpful.

In other news, the motor finally gave up the ghost on my Honda at near 100k miles. Something something Ural is not Honda something or other.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by gobium » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:38 pm

In Russia, it takes 3 generations to get 650 ural run right.
650 is a handful, I refuse to touch them, even when repair correctly! Something else unrelated will break soon.
Best to put 750 engine in it if you want to ride across town.

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:29 pm

This one is already on it's second generation.

I will likely sell it once it is running. I want a new one altogether, and it's value not running is too low and I will lose too much.
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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by jaybird » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:22 am

Adelphia wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:05 pm
Update to thread. Pistons arrived from Holopaw. I don't like.
What's wrong with the new pistons?

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by URALNUT60 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:48 am

Thought Gene sold Hasting pistons and rings, oh well, Adelphia you bought aluminum jugs and that is the need for longer base studs?

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Re: 1999 650. Only firing one plug

Post by Adelphia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:20 pm

jaybird wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:22 am
Adelphia wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:05 pm
Update to thread. Pistons arrived from Holopaw. I don't like.
What's wrong with the new pistons?

Happy trails,
Jaybird
I just don't like them. They look a lot different and the quality appears lower than the IMZ originals. They very well may be perfectly fine. For what I have the entire top end kit coming from Russia, I can compare the two and decide. If I like the Russian parts better, I can machine these cylinders and set them up and keep them as spares or pass the set along to one of you fine people.

Yes, longer base studs to fit the aluminum jugs. The base is a bit thicker. Apparently there is a Fastenal part that fits, as well as a Russian exhaust stud from some SUV that fits perfectly. I'd be willing to use either one.

According to Russian Garage, the aluminum jugs and pistons are made by IMZ. They could be full of it, but who knows. I don't know what the Russian domestic parts market looks like. It would make sense for them not to export parts to sort of sway you to just buy a new rig.
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