Tappet Failure?

Are ya having a problem with your rig? We'll try to help. Share your tech tips and experiences here. Dr. Billy Glaser, author of the "Unofficial 750 Ural Service Manual" site myural.com, is moderating this section.
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Msblu79
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Msblu79 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:21 am

VWK75S wrote:
Darkblood wrote:Might be a silly question but you are rotating the engine to TDC for each side when you adjust right?
That's a good point.
John
Yes indeed, that would explain alot. :)
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Fullbore » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:26 am

No problem w/ TDC. Definitely got the adjustment process. The problem appears to be on the top end of the tappet. I have talked with several folks now that have had problems exactly like mine, where the pushrod seems to be sinking into the top of tappet (for lack of a better way to describe it). In their case, IMWA had the tappets and pushrods replaced and good to go. I hope we can do that with mine and color it good. Hopefully I will know something this weekend. Hauling it back to dealer on Saturday.

Apparently there is a common theme that the processes of hardening my not be standardized at the factory. I have been hearing about problems with soft cams, rocker arms, pushrod (ends) and tappets. Commonality...hardening, or lack there of. I have never really been a proponent for ISO certification since it doesn't really call for a quality standard but specifically the repeatability of a process. In other words you can do poorly at something but as long as you can document, standardize/repeat the process you can become ISO certified (with enough cash). One of the concerns w/ ISO is when companies use it as an excuse to subvert a standard or absolve themselves of liability for a standard- it happens. In a perfect world, as long as a manufacturer can establish AND meet a baseline standard (i.e. Milspec) and then use a process to successfully accomplish it, then an ISO cert can ensure repeatability. All of that said, I think this may be a good argument for having a manufacturing a process ISO certified provided they can standardize the right process.

Attached is photo of the style of rocker arms on this one.

I'll post another video that shows the pushrod in a bind. Also no high pitched noise. I have seen bad (poorly hardened) cams silently erode before but I don't think that's the case here. If it were the cam I think the engine oil would have had much more debris in it upon service. Also, the valve duration would be off significantly and the engine would be making unbalanced power which it does not. It runs smooth as can be for a few minutes and then clack clack. Still runs pretty smooth, just noisy. Also I wondered if the intake valve may have a bad guide and was possibly hanging up but that cant be because I'd have blow-back in the right carb. I've seen that happen before (different engines) and the piston would tap the valve closed depending on where it got stuck. Again there would be blow back and popping and erratic operation.
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by fmaxwell » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:51 pm

JamesG wrote:I think it would take some kind of catastrophic gear train failure to grind down a cam shaft in 580 kms.
Nope. I had an overhead cam 6 Pontiac motor from 1967 (like the one shown below).

Image

The cam lobes rode directly on rockers that pushed the valves. On the other end of the rocker was an automatic, hydraulic valve lash adjuster. You can see and example of a wiped rocker and cam lobe in these pictures:

Image
Image

Those engines were notorious for destroying cams and they could do so within a few days. I had one go within a week of replacing it. All it took was metal-to-metal contact wearing through the hardened face on one lobe and you'd lose a tenths of inches from it within a week or two. It was a lubrication issue. You better have damned good assembly lube on the cams, never mix up the rocker arms, never use low-quality oil, etc. It's the reason why you need high ZDDP levels in oils used with flat tappet engines.
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Fullbore » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:38 pm

Fullbore wrote: Once we get down to the guts of the thing I'll post a few more pictures. It will be interesting to see what the head of the right intake tappet looks like.
Well, as expected there was a problem with the intake tappet on the right cylinder. Got to the shop around mid-day Saturday and got it on the rack and cracked it open. The problem was apparently incorrect machining in the pushrod pocket. As the pushrod started to wear-in, it sunk further into the tappet and eventually got completely stuck. New tappet and pushrod, reassembled and back onto the trailer for the long ride home.
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Albuquralque » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:03 am

Great job!!!! Ride it!!! :clap:
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by lendrinkard » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:28 pm

Hi All.

Another tappet issue. I have a 2012 Gear UP bought from Heindl Engineering. Great folks. (http://www.heindlengineering.com)

1300K on the sidecar. I am 20 miles from BMW Cleveland who started selling Urals a few moths ago and they are an authorized dealer/service center. I tried to take my rig in for it's 500K service but was told they were out of oi filters to do the service. So I did the 500K service on my own. I wanted them to do it because I heard a tappet pounding on the right side. When I did the service I found that the right exhaust valve was way out. Like 010. out. I torqued the heads to 40-45 ft pounds. Reset the valves to 004 and hoped for the best. No luck 500 miles later the pounding was back. I keep set the clearance but it goes back out.

I had met Dave Heindl and Jon Heindl last year and had heard what fine people they are. They have been selling URALs a long time but were 3 hours away. I took my rig to BMW Cleveland for service. Zak the service guy said he heard the problem too and thought it was the push rod slapping back and forth. He asked what I had torqued the heads to. I said 40-45 lbs. He said I over torqued the heads. That Washington headquarters told him 35 lbs. The problem might be my fault and not covered under warranty. Called Heindl Engineering, Dave called Washington headquarters, BMW Cleveland called me and said they were told to fix it under warranty and get me on the road. I don't think I caused the problem and I don't think it is the head bolt. Zak At BMW Cleveland is doing the repairs. I hope this fixes the problem.
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2013 NOS Ural T - 130/42 jet, 2 shims, LED running lights, oil cooler

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Komrad » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:47 am

You don't by any chance know the serial number of the engine do you? I'm wondering if this is an isolated issue or one that may be in a series of a production run. Keep us posted.
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lendrinkard
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by lendrinkard » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:08 pm

Hi Komrad,

I don't have the rig back yet. I will send along the serial number as soon as I can. I did get a Private message from Hal Goodwin who knows the staff at BMW Cleveland, Ohio. He said he saw Zach working on my sidecar. Zach had the right cylinder off. He is installing Timeinserts (like Helicoils) on each of the head bolts. Go Zach go. I hope this resolves my problem. I will let you know.

Len
2012 Gear up - 130/40 jet, 3 shims, no mid-pipe, drilled slider, 2013 Branch pipes, all LED lights
2013 NOS Ural T - 130/42 jet, 2 shims, LED running lights, oil cooler

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by lendrinkard » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:00 pm

Hey

Well I took the rig into BMW Cleveland on December 8th got it back on January 9th. Zach put time inserts on the right side.
No joy in Mudville. I put 160 K on it and heard the clack again. Took it back on January 11th. Zach said that both sides displayed the same frequency so everything was fine. (Not sure what that means) Rode it till I hit 240 K and pulled the valve covers and checked the clearances. All good save one. Right side valve was way out. 016 inch not the 002 - 004 it should have been. As promised here is the serial number from the engine C0011741* . I am not sure what to do at this point. I reset the one valve to 004 and am just going to ride it some more.
2012 Gear up - 130/40 jet, 3 shims, no mid-pipe, drilled slider, 2013 Branch pipes, all LED lights
2013 NOS Ural T - 130/42 jet, 2 shims, LED running lights, oil cooler

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Komrad » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:24 am

Thanks for the engine serial number. You're about 70 units previous to mine. I hope this resolves itself without further intervention. It's disappointing to have an issue mar a "new ride experience". A little checking by the tech would have identified this extra clearance in the valve lash. I hope they step up, and address the issue if the problem continues. Good luck.
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by lendrinkard » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:21 am

Hey

Pushrod from hell. You know I think we are on the hunt now. What I failed to say or even realize the importance of, is the valve lash problem switched from the exhaust valve side to the intake side. When I said the valve lash was 016 out I should have said the intake valve. The problem switched sides. It must be the pushrod. Zach must have switch the pushrod when he reassembled the head. I rode up to BMW Cleveland were I happened to met Hal Goodwin. He is a member of SS and a long time mechanic and tinkerer. He thought of the solution right away. I then talked with Adam, the Service Manager and Zach the Mechanic and they told me to bring the rig back and they would try replacing the pushrod. As soon as I can I will ride the sidecar back to them and drop it off.

I have also just met Eeyore who lives about a mile from me. He is a SS member also and has a 2010 Ural Gearup. He rides almost everyday, year round, witch takes some doing in Ohio winters. The only other local member I have not had the good luck it meet yet is Gobium who I think lives near me here in Ohio.

I will let you guys know what happens with the new pushrod when I get it back.

Len
2012 Gear up - 130/40 jet, 3 shims, no mid-pipe, drilled slider, 2013 Branch pipes, all LED lights
2013 NOS Ural T - 130/42 jet, 2 shims, LED running lights, oil cooler

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by Albuquralque » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:24 am

Len,
I understand it is warranty work, but wouldn't it be easier to remove both push rods and measure them? That will tell you if it is a defective push rod or not.

Just a thunk.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"


Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM), 2014 Patrol

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by lendrinkard » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:45 am

Hi Darrell

Well here is the funny thing. When I mentioned to Zach that we thought it was a pushrod problem he said he noticed that one pushrod was about an 1/8 of an inch shorter than the other. He was thinking it was a stripped head bold issue and did not think it was the pushrod. I don't know for sure but we will find out soon if it is a pushrod problem.

Thanks for the feedback.

Len
2012 Gear up - 130/40 jet, 3 shims, no mid-pipe, drilled slider, 2013 Branch pipes, all LED lights
2013 NOS Ural T - 130/42 jet, 2 shims, LED running lights, oil cooler

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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by URAL CT » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:53 am

Coluralado wrote:Len,
I understand it is warranty work, but wouldn't it be easier to remove both push rods and measure them? That will tell you if it is a defective push rod or not.
Just a thunk.
+1 on what Coluralado suggested. When my 07 Patrol was new, can't remember the kms on the odometer, one of the push rods jumped out of the socket. But I was able to to get the rig home. I replaced all the push rods with the ModTop version. They are well built with class act materials & workmanship. The RPOC push rods were all different lengths. The variance between the shortest to the longest is 1/8" :shock: Another check one needs to do is...to place the rocker arm on a surface plate to check for flatness. They should be flat and not rock back & forth. If any of the rocker is not flat against the cylinder head mounting surface, when you torque it you'll put undue stress (like a twist or bind) to the arm & pin. The metal will most likely fatigue and disaster will follow....just sayin'....I'm no expert & I can prove it. :deal: but :givemebeer:
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Re: Tappet Failure?

Post by deeve » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:23 pm

FWIW, I had the same tappet issue with my Gobi. under 1000km and the pushrob had pushed into the tappet enough that the clearance could not be adjusted enough to set the valves. All 4 replaced under warranty and no problems since.

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