Ural Alighnment

Are ya having a problem with your rig? We'll try to help. Share your tech tips and experiences here. Dr. Billy Glaser, author of the "Unofficial 750 Ural Service Manual" site myural.com, is moderating this section.
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RC20
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Ural Alighnment

Post by RC20 » Tue May 04, 2021 2:25 pm

I am opening up this topic not as an expert (maybe a victim!) that people who want good information on the subject can come to and get some answers or approach.

In my case, mine pulled severely to the right from the day I took delivery. I was sensor overloaded with the new to Ural and side car aspect, so it took me 800 some miles to start to get some level of comfort and start to feel it was not right.

Snakeoil (Rob) offered the first approach in using more lean that was the key in my case to getting rid of the hard right pull.

In the HCS 106 shocks in Modification Claus offered up his experience with alignment. That included a confirmation of what I thought was going on with mine in that the front and rear angles were not the same (initially). Also it was important (and if I am passing this on right) its important to be the same.

I just re-checked mine and it looks like I am about a degree out between front and rear (I have to do some contortion to get the Ural on a level spot).

My old pointer type angle meter is difficult to read (nor was it intended for real fine reading). I thought to do a check with it on a level and it is about 1 to 1.5 deg out from what I can tell. I have a digital angle meter headed this way, it reads in tenths which I don't need but should be clearly easy to read for the Ural.

Again, I am not passing myself off as an expert, I am taking the input of two people in particular that what they wrote about made sense. The ability to convey technical information is as important for this as the knowledge.

Heindle also tried to help and I thank them. We were not able to get on the same page. That is difficult for them in this sort of forum as they are busy trying to run a business and support their Ural sales. As we all know, there is only so much time in the day and you have a life outside of work or business.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

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Wildhorse Cafe
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Wildhorse Cafe » Tue May 04, 2021 2:55 pm

I have found that my tablet with a inclination app works for me. I place it middle of the wheel against the rim and the tire.
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RC20
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by RC20 » Tue May 04, 2021 6:04 pm

Others have noted that and I should have. We are both Cell and Tablet free and proud. Not sure how many still use the flip cell phones and if smart phones have something like that.

Anything that read to a degree would work though half a degree would allow a bit better assessment.

In my case, I am out someplace around 3 -4 degrees and its important that people know that is a possible.

Claus feel it more than it should be and I agree, but mechanics find at times that you can run into the odd stuff and sometimes going to extremes is a way to find out what might work. In my case I was out around 6 degrees as a gross exaggeration to see if there was relief in that regard.

6 degrees took it to pulling left (not as bad as the right pull) so I knew that there was something between 2 deg and 6 that might get it to where it should be (what I call relatively neutral, which I think is a bit variable per person but ball park in what it should be)
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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Claus
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm

Now you've opened this new thread, I'd like to participate a bit.
Let me translate a few words of my late comrade Thomas Hey'l, who rode a Victoria KR 26 and was a real side car enthusiast.
The rig he was riding and writing about is a light 250cc ridgid frame motorcycle with a light side car, so not everything is applicable to a Ural but the main parameters are not far from our Urals.

Image Thomas wrote about a toe in of 1 degree, that equals 20 to 30 mm on a Victoria with a wheel base of 1.350 mm.

Lean. Thomas wrote:
This setting must work with the toe-in and is called "camber". The larger the toe-in angle, the smaller the camber can be.

With 18– or 19 "wheels, this camber between the upper and lower tire flanks (measured on the rear wheel) should make a difference of 4 to 10mm (again one degree, but this information is hardly useful). It takes a plumb line (twine does it) with a heavy nutat the end. This line is held to a defined point on the upper rear tire , in such a way that the nut can swing in the free space just before the ground. The difference is then measured at the same radius (again with a loaded motorcycle and sidecar). To do this, of course, the rig has to be level


Image

I would subscribe most of that to find a first set up one could start with.
What is needful to know to make this basic set up is that one needs to put the rider's weight in the saddle and the monkey's weight in the tub. And the side car frame should be level lengthwise and crosswise on a level ground.
This is not easy to achieve, not even in my shop.
But I keep saying it again: Don't take it too precisely. Itś not one or two mm off what makes the rig drag or drive bad.
If you measure it with a folding rule and the angles with a plumb and a piece of chalk it will give good results.
A digital square measure is nice to have but not mandatory. If you know how to use Pythagoras you're well off.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Claus
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Tue May 04, 2021 7:41 pm

To continue with what I do regularly on a rig :

1: burden motorcycle with riders weight and side car with average payload.
2: level side car frame length- and crosswise with a long spirit level.
3: set toe in
4: set lean out
5: test ride
6: play with different tyre pressures

*1: Tie down with tie belts so the rig stays where it was loaded
*2: well, best when the tub is off (where possible)
*3: On rigs without side car drive I prefer 35 to 45mm. (Others prefer like close to zero toe in, but I'm describing what I am doing regularly)
*4: I prefer zero lean with riders weight on uncrowned road, or around 1 degree lean out on crowned road)

This is not carved in stone but always brings me good results.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

RC20
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by RC20 » Wed May 05, 2021 12:48 pm

Claus:

You have the chops for this discussion.

Thank you, I am a one off and rider not remotely in the capability you have. I am just a rider trying to sort it out (as are many others)

Some of the work I did I got to be expert at. Other aspects you saw so rarely that I was not, then we hoped to get someone who saw the whole spectrum of that type of work and had the background to address it.

You have that in spades.

One thing I did learn, set it up to the mfg specifications or the norm first. Most of the time it worked for the good reason they knew the situation. Occasionally it would fail, but it was a good staring point to sort out why it was not working and without it you just wind up floundering.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

rougaroo
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by rougaroo » Wed May 05, 2021 2:03 pm

Claus has brought up important points that many folks just blow by. If you watch the Ural videos on alignment you'll see that alignment is done in a specific order. It is kind of like tuning the carbs - doesn't do any good if you don't check the valves and head torque first or you'll end up chasing your tail.

1. Level the frame between the sidecar and the pusher first. To get really accurate, load the sidecar with whatever is "normal" weight for you and then sit on the bike while someone else levels the frame. Dealers often do this job without any weight in the sidecar or on the bike. Imagine for a second a bike set up perfectly level without any weight when a 200lb+ rider hops on. Is it level now?

2. Adjust toe-in after leveling the bike.

3. Adjust leanout only after adjusting toe-in. The leanout degrees of the bike are more a function of the normal crown on the roads you ride on. Ideally you'd set the leanout so that the bike would be straight up and down while riding on the side of a crowned road.

4. And finally don't be a slave to the numbers. Since there are so many variables involved that even a dealer can't anticipate, use your own experience to adjust on the fly as you ride. Here's a summary from the book How to Ride the Ural Motorcycle (downloadable from the sticky at the top of the "Ural/Dnpr 101" section of the forum.
Leanout is initially adjusted at approximately 1 degree from vertical with suspension
compressed with normal load, but leanout must then be fine-tuned from steering
feedback. If the outfit consistently drags towards the right at highway speed, leanout
should be increased. If the outfit steers too much towards the left, leanout should be
decreased.
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RC20
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by RC20 » Wed May 05, 2021 5:38 pm

The point about level I would hope to clarify. I don't disagree with the general, but if you adjust lean, that goes out the window.

I am floating the notion on a hard to adjust machine like mine, lean may be what you want to ID roughly right before the level.

I did have mine level at one point, toe in per spec and about 1.5 deg lean and for mine, no affect.

Now I am dialing in lean (front and rear adjustment to the same) and once I have that I can Kentucky Windage (see note) what the side car slant will be to get it level with the required lean.

note: In the US Kentucky windage is your best guess as to what the wind would do to your musket ball and adjust to the left or right so that by the time it arrives at the target, it hits dead on.

I hope to get this all sorted before I have to quit riding!
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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Claus
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Thu May 06, 2021 2:27 am

RC20 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:38 pm

I hope to get this all sorted before I have to quit riding!
We have an after market Harley supplyer in Germany who´s slogan is "a biker´s work is never done" :mrgreen:
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Lmo » Thu May 06, 2021 3:27 am

Combined.jpg
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Thu May 06, 2021 5:55 am

Lmo wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:27 am
Combined.jpg
:thumbsup:
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

RC20
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by RC20 » Thu May 06, 2021 12:02 pm

We have an after market Harley supplyer in Germany who´s slogan is "a biker´s work is never done"
I worked on large commercial building mechanical and electrical systems. I gave it a good shot but never worked myself out of a job :shock:
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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Claus
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Thu May 06, 2021 1:54 pm

owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by aduthie » Thu May 06, 2021 8:50 pm

I like their clutch performance enhancer! Good sense of humor on that site, including all the category drawings.
Andrew Duthie / Nashville Motorcycle Repair / Nashville, TN

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Claus
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Re: Ural Alighnment

Post by Claus » Fri May 07, 2021 3:00 am

aduthie wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:50 pm

I like their clutch performance enhancer! Good sense of humor on that site, including all the category drawings.
Yes. A bit on the pricey side but good service, fast shipping and the printed catalogue is art work.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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