Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?-Solved by helpful members

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windmill
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:03 am

Waffl6 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:38 am
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:51 am
Good stuff! I didn't catch that you got it.

More spokes are stronger, stiffer, and heavier. Also, cosmetically the larger the wheel diameter, the better it will look with more spokes. most likely it was a combination of strength and aesthetics.
Ah, I see. This bike does have a fairly large front rim, at 21".

So any idea if the thing rattling around inside the rim is going to be an issue? I asked about it earlier in the thread. I really don't want to lace a whole new rim again but if whatever is rattling could be something bigger then I guess I have no choice.
It's debris from the manufacturing processes, rims are typically rolled into a circle from flat stock or extrusions, and and butt welded together. It's nothing to be concerned about.

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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Waffl6 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:14 am

windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:03 am
It's debris from the manufacturing processes, rims are typically rolled into a circle from flat stock or extrusions, and and butt welded together. It's nothing to be concerned about.

Image

Image
Dang, you guys really are a great source of information. I won't worry about it then.

Thank you for this, these pictures are awesome. I sent them to my dad, I think he'd find them cool as well.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Snakeoil » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:39 am

The rattling is simply metal bits from the welding process. More than likely inside the rolled rim bead. It's not uncommon to have that in a rim with a rolled bead.

Not to add yet another level of complexity to this process, but many OEMs designate which spokes need to be laced in which direction wrt wheel rotation. Front can differ from rear, the reason being brake or engine loading. Many tires have a similar consideration. Some of that will be reflected in how well the butted end of the spokes fits into the countersunk holes in the hub. I hope you took a lot of photos of the wheel before you took it apart. Those photos will tell you if you have the wheel laced in the proper config for the front wheel application.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Waffl6 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:44 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:39 am
The rattling is simply metal bits from the welding process. More than likely inside the rolled rim bead. It's not uncommon to have that in a rim with a rolled bead.

Not to add yet another level of complexity to this process, but many OEMs designate which spokes need to be laced in which direction wrt wheel rotation. Front can differ from rear, the reason being brake or engine loading. Many tires have a similar consideration. Some of that will be reflected in how well the butted end of the spokes fits into the countersunk holes in the hub. I hope you took a lot of photos of the wheel before you took it apart. Those photos will tell you if you have the wheel laced in the proper config for the front wheel application.
I took absolutely none because I didn't know the process differed wheel to wheel, I thought everything was laced the same. I now know that there are different methods and that this wheel uses 3 cross lacing.

Yesterday I dug through the service manual I have, found nothing about lacing. So, I don't know if it matters how they are arranged, but this thought did come up in my head at one point.

After Michal drew the spoke arrangement on the one good photo of the front wheel that I do have, I was able to get the wheel laced up in what I am fairly confident is the exact pattern that it was before, but you can check the pictures to verify if you'd like.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Peter Pan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Just for to add to Rob's (Snaleoil) observation: hub and rim bores differ (which goes to which) and spokes have their position. THEY HAVE TO GO STRAIGHT AND MAY NOT BEND EACH OTHER.

In this aspect I remember someone in CR who had organized a perfect lacing setup rig, but not a clue what he did, so he stressed the spokes by bending them (wrong mounting order: inside above outside)
One week later the whole wheel was destroyed. some hub and rim bores pulled out, some spokes broken and all bent.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by cheeseheadmike » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:42 pm

I recommend perusing The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. Dry and ungodly boring. Filled with information you’d never need. But, his explanations on wheel lacing are the best out there and can cross over to motorcycle wheels. I find myself referring to it every now and then.
Too late now for you, but should you ever need do this again, try this. Line up the valve holes and tape the old and new rims together. Move spokes over from the old rim to the new rim one at a time after relieving the spoke tension.
Image
This picture sort of lies because the valves holes aren’t lined up. Reason being that the rims are different makes and one is drilled with the lead spoke left and the other is drilled with the lead spoke right. Old bicycle wheels can be annoying.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Snakeoil » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:06 pm

I suggest you go on line and do a search for your bike year and model and look for images. You might be able to zoom in and see which way the spokes were laced on the front wheel.

Rule of thumb for anything, and I mean anything that you do in the future that will involve you taking something apart is take plenty of pictures before you disturb anything. With everyone carrying a smartphone (well almost everyone) there is no excuse for not have a photo record of any assembly.

I doubt if many motorcycle manuals show how to lace and true a wheel anymore. It was standard fare in all HD manuals at one time. I have not looked at my 2001 manual lately to see if that topic is still in there.

If you are young and just learning about this stuff, it is par for the course to dive into something only to find that you wish you had curbed your enthusiasm with a bit more thought and pre-planning. What you are experiencing with this wheel are seeds from which sprout wisdom.

We had a VP that used to use this saying on a regular basis. "You don't know what you don't know." Keeping that in mind whenever you are doing something you have never done before will help prevent you from heading down a path blind. I suspect that just about everyone here with gray hair will agree that it's never as simple or easy as it first appears.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by cheeseheadmike » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:10 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:06 pm
I suggest you go on line and do a search for your bike year and model and look for images. You might be able to zoom in and see which way the spokes were laced on the front wheel.

Rule of thumb for anything, and I mean anything that you do in the future that will involve you taking something apart is take plenty of pictures before you disturb anything. With everyone carrying a smartphone (well almost everyone) there is no excuse for not have a photo record of any assembly.

I doubt if many motorcycle manuals show how to lace and true a wheel anymore. It was standard fare in all HD manuals at one time. I have not looked at my 2001 manual lately to see if that topic is still in there.

If you are young and just learning about this stuff, it is par for the course to dive into something only to find that you wish you had curbed your enthusiasm with a bit more thought and pre-planning. What you are experiencing with this wheel are seeds from which sprout wisdom.

We had a VP that used to use this saying on a regular basis. "You don't know what you don't know." Keeping that in mind whenever you are doing something you have never done before will help prevent you from heading down a path blind. I suspect that just about everyone here with gray hair will agree that it's never as simple or easy as it first appears.
Spot on.
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1973 Velosolex 3800-slow, 1977 Velosolex 4600-really slow
1979 Honda CX500-not slow at all
Various bicycles from 1952 to 2014-slow to fast, depending on my mood
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Waffl6 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:45 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:06 pm
I suggest you go on line and do a search for your bike year and model and look for images. You might be able to zoom in and see which way the spokes were laced on the front wheel.

Rule of thumb for anything, and I mean anything that you do in the future that will involve you taking something apart is take plenty of pictures before you disturb anything. With everyone carrying a smartphone (well almost everyone) there is no excuse for not have a photo record of any assembly.

I doubt if many motorcycle manuals show how to lace and true a wheel anymore. It was standard fare in all HD manuals at one time. I have not looked at my 2001 manual lately to see if that topic is still in there.

If you are young and just learning about this stuff, it is par for the course to dive into something only to find that you wish you had curbed your enthusiasm with a bit more thought and pre-planning. What you are experiencing with this wheel are seeds from which sprout wisdom.

We had a VP that used to use this saying on a regular basis. "You don't know what you don't know." Keeping that in mind whenever you are doing something you have never done before will help prevent you from heading down a path blind. I suspect that just about everyone here with gray hair will agree that it's never as simple or easy as it first appears.
Typically, I do take pictures as I disassemble things. Unfortunately for some reason, I didn't do it with this.

Yeah, I definitely wish I had planned this out a little better. I have spent a total of 3 days working on this now and it has been a very frustrating experience. But, it's getting there now and I'm almost finished.

I never got around to finishing the truing last night, but I'm working on it right now. Am I correct in saying that I am measuring wheel rim runout? If so, my manual says that 2mm/0.8 inches is the service limit. So if I am using a pointer, can I set it at 1.8mm from the rim and call it a day if it does not touch the rim at all when spinning? Right now I believe I have it within 2mm, my pointer is right around 1.98mm according to my measuring calipers.

Edit: radial and axial limits are both 2mm.

Edit 2: I decided that truing the wheel is a little too complex for me to learn on my own and I am taking it to a forum member tomorrow for help, better to learn the right way than have all this work be for nothing when I break a spoke.
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Re: Attempting to lace the wheel for my Honda Shadow, what am I doing wrong?

Post by Waffl6 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:32 pm

Okay, I have an update for everyone.

I took my rim to a user here, TheWildOne/Ken and he seemed fairly impressed with how well I had done with the wheel when truing it, so I felt pretty good about it. He ended up taking the majority of the radial runout out of the rim and then I later finished the rest of it on my own after he showed me the sound I was looking for to know the spokes are tight.

Today I got the tire mounted and then because I was short on time I took it to a place nearby to get it balanced. It was a Harley service center, but they were still willing to do it for me. They even let me go back into the service area and I got to talk to one of the technicians about lacing wheels, and I told him I had done it primarily myself. He checked the true and told me it looked great! The best part of all of it was that they didn't charge me anything at all for the balance, weights, etc. This is something that I haven't ever seen in my life, a real shop doing work free of charge!

Very impressed with the people at that shop and even though I don't own a Harley, I will go back to them for something at some point.

Thanks again everyone for your help, I couldn't have done this without all of your guidance.
Probably the youngest guy in the room.

Current bikes: 1987 Rebel 250, 1990 Ninja 500, 2009 Honda Shadow 750

Past bikes: 1994 Katana 600

Fairfax Virginia

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