2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
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Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips
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2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 am

Again symptoms, Rough idle, Poor low end power, and hard to start. I mostly drive in town, daily, I want the worth out of my expensive insurance (thanks be to MPI) Getting out of the hole is a mater of waiting when starting off, but after getting up into the rpm range it picks itself up to make some power, but seems to be lacking in torque. Trying the back road to work see if I can rev it out a bit.

Things I have done to attempt, and failed to solve my problems. (My pride is found amidst sarcasm)

Adjusting the idle screw so the thing idles, poorly instead of not at all
Changed Plugs (Autolite 4321, Available in my local Napa)
Checked plug wires, there corroding in the spark plug boot, waiting for new ones (and applying Dielectric grease)
Removed ground wire form batter and waited for the computer to power out (Old trick for OBD1 cars, it didn't work)
Checked air filter, its not plugged.
Cylinder leak down test, 95 psi input 90 psi leak down. Blew the throttle bodies out of there rubber boots, put on screw style hose clamps. These engines don't want to stay at TDS with 95 Pounds put into the cylinder
Adjusted valves, and re adjusted valves back after discovering my 4 and 5 thou feelers stuck together.
Removed exhaust at the cats. This only has managed to produce a broken exhaust clamp and a some respect for exhaust silences.

This generally covers the most things that are signs of a motor letting out the glitter. Any ideas of what I'm dealing with, I have seen the post of changing the throttle blade replacement, feel like that might be the thing to do.
Hope to here something not expensive.
Proud owner of a not pristine 2017 Ural Gear-up in Woodland camo. Its a daily, it's not perfect, and I'm fine with that

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Ironhand » Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:26 am

No offense intended, but not knowing your mechanical abilities - is it possible that it is running on only one cylinder? That would seem to explain all of your symptoms. A friend had a similar issue and discovered that the spring clip within one of his spark plug boots was flipped 180 degrees. It made contact with the plug and his rig ran fine for months, then somehow lost contact, creating a loss of spark.
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by roberd42 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:06 pm

Easy way to tell if it’s not running on one side is to use a cheap harbor freight IR thermometer and read the header pipes should be about the same. You could pull the plug wires one at a time while it’s running, you may need throttle to keep it going but if it dies right away then you know.

Ultimately I’d say going to the Bosch EFI upgrade kit may be money well spent. Waiting on mine to deliver.
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by stagewex » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:31 pm

I don't own an EFI rig but it seems a bunch of folks had good luck changing those throttle-blades you speak of. At least if they are the original silver one's.
I think it turned out they were deformed and the replacement black ones really helped. If this has not been done, check it out.
I don't know if that was a recall or defect or something else. Others can tell you.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

List what you "have", keep the others in your precious memory bank.

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Eric N » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:01 pm

Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 am
Again symptoms, Rough idle, Poor low end power, and hard to start. I mostly drive in town, daily, I want the worth out of my expensive insurance (thanks be to MPI) Getting out of the hole is a mater of waiting when starting off, but after getting up into the rpm range it picks itself up to make some power, but seems to be lacking in torque. Trying the back road to work see if I can rev it out a bit.

Things I have done to attempt, and failed to solve my problems. (My pride is found amidst sarcasm)

Adjusting the idle screw so the thing idles, poorly instead of not at all
Changed Plugs (Autolite 4321, Available in my local Napa)
Checked plug wires, there corroding in the spark plug boot, waiting for new ones (and applying Dielectric grease)
Removed ground wire form batter and waited for the computer to power out (Old trick for OBD1 cars, it didn't work)
Checked air filter, its not plugged.
Cylinder leak down test, 95 psi input 90 psi leak down. Blew the throttle bodies out of there rubber boots, put on screw style hose clamps. These engines don't want to stay at TDS with 95 Pounds put into the cylinder
Adjusted valves, and re adjusted valves back after discovering my 4 and 5 thou feelers stuck together.
Removed exhaust at the cats. This only has managed to produce a broken exhaust clamp and a some respect for exhaust silences.

This generally covers the most things that are signs of a motor letting out the glitter. Any ideas of what I'm dealing with, I have seen the post of changing the throttle blade replacement, feel like that might be the thing to do.
Hope to here something not expensive.
Is this a sudden change with the bike?

OBD tool to synch your throttle bodies if you haven't made one already. It's not perfect but starts you balanced at both idle and 1,800 RPM.

viewtopic.php?t=47343

Bike wants to be in the 3,000 - 5,000 rpm range. If you haven't connected the tachometer, might want to do that.

viewtopic.php?t=49289

I can't find that Autolite plug, the cross references seem to be The Autolite 4123. Do you have way wrong plugs?

There is no low end power. The bike has a 3 piece pressed crank with roller bearings. You're lugging it at 2,500 rpm. Peak torque is at 4,300 rpm.

The Electrojet fuel injection does not have a throttle position sensor. The bike needs to warm up before it works properly. The O2 sensors need to be at temperature for it to properly do it's thing. A 2017 has the proper throttle body butterflies.

Removing your cats will likely make it run worse.

If you add your location to your signature, there might be someone local who can help take a look.
2018 Gear Up 825cc
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2001 Patrol - Sold

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 am

At Ironhand My general mechanical abilities are bublefucking around trying not to break everything I touch, I have paper work saying I'm an automotive apprentice. Pick and replace, I don't have diag down yet, book knowledge is not always useful. the bic certainly could be running on only one cylinder, but I at this point lean toward week spark, both down pipes get hot, so its doing something. I feel like rust has something to do with it

At roberd42 I got a mastercrap one, there's about a 50C difference between the two down pipes, around 500C on the left and about 450C right. I should do more dicking about and see what i can dig up.

At stagewex I do have to check them, I most likely have the silver ones

At Eric N It's a Autolight 4321, I gave them the NGK number and this is what they gave me, I am in approximately nowhere important so NGK's aren't on hand here. They fit, they spark, although I should probably go and check gap. This was kinda a sudden change, I was ridding, rolled throttle open after a school zone, came around to a 4 way stop and it kinda just limped out of the gate, pulled into my driveway and it just slowly died. cranked didn't light right up, gave it some throttle, cranked, fired let off, died. came back later and did much the same, adjusted the idle set until it would idle, poorly but running
Proud owner of a not pristine 2017 Ural Gear-up in Woodland camo. Its a daily, it's not perfect, and I'm fine with that

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by stagewex » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:20 am

Eric N. says your 2017 should already have the upgraded black (vs. Silver) one's and I'd certainly trust his judgement over mine. I'm a "carbie guy".

Then again it's a Ural so who the heck knows.

There could be an inmate here that's close to your location so adding it to your signature would be of great help to you.
I don't know what or where "Ironhand" is if that's a place/location? And Good Luck, hope it's simple. They often are with these rigs and 2017 is a reasonably much better built year than my 2007. Or at least should be.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

List what you "have", keep the others in your precious memory bank.

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:00 am

Iornhand is the first user to reply. I'm just trying to put some structure to the replies, I live in a small town 2000km from where I got the unit. Ill give you a hunt, its a town in Manitoba where you beheaded

I very much feel like plug wires will help my problem because I checked resistance after cleaning up the spark plug boot, there is an imbalance between the two, left about 4kOhm, right 6kOhm. the multi meter I have is very meh, it is an inexpensive unit so its not precise but good enough, cheep mastercrap stuff

cleaned out corrosion from the spark plug boots with some CLP and a 30cal rifle boar wire brush, sprayed out with break clean. need to take it out see if it helped at all, it rained all day today
Proud owner of a not pristine 2017 Ural Gear-up in Woodland camo. Its a daily, it's not perfect, and I'm fine with that

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by VWK75S » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:12 am

Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 am
This was kinda a sudden change, I was ridding, rolled throttle open after a school zone, came around to a 4 way stop and it kinda just limped out of the gate, pulled into my driveway and it just slowly died. cranked didn't light right up, gave it some throttle, cranked, fired let off, died. came back later and did much the same, adjusted the idle set until it would idle, poorly but running
I'd check fuel delivery.
John
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2007 Retro 25,000kms
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:07 pm

VWK75S wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:12 am
Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 am
This was kinda a sudden change, I was ridding, rolled throttle open after a school zone, came around to a 4 way stop and it kinda just limped out of the gate, pulled into my driveway and it just slowly died. cranked didn't light right up, gave it some throttle, cranked, fired let off, died. came back later and did much the same, adjusted the idle set until it would idle, poorly but running
I'd check fuel delivery.
John
Definitely getting fuel, was able to screw about today, got the right cat a bit red after trying some things. Re gaped the plugs to .040 from what the Autolight 4123 plugs that I have were at, .025. This did not seem to help. let it cool off, and doused the cat. (no I didnt melt it) Swapped the plug wires Left to right, runs half decent now. differently not 100%, more like 80% dose not want to do more than 80kph. So the conclusion I am coming to is poor wires, possibly a less than perfect right side spark coil.
as a side it wants to run now, even if it is not running perfect
Proud owner of a not pristine 2017 Ural Gear-up in Woodland camo. Its a daily, it's not perfect, and I'm fine with that

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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:06 am

Is now 3 years old, may or may not help, when mine (2016 CT) was 3 years old I had to replace both plug wires, it wouldn't cold-start if wet/damp, not without a soaking in WD40 first; I changed the plug wires for simpler straight copper core, they screw right into the coils as is, no need for that silly custom crimp connector to make fit. Also the plug caps were changed to NGK LZFH, I like these phenolic NGK caps they come with rubber seals to keep water out, I've been using them for years on different bikes. That changed and improved the way it runs a lot, even sounds different, exhaust note is a bit more "barky" which says to me must be getting bigger "bangs" in the cylinders (?). That was in October last year. Also currently using Brisk NR15YCY, or NR14CY plugs, not sure which at the mo. That was dealer's recommendation to try, because of a bit of popping and farting sometimes from the left (I already have the offroad map), but what mainly cured that was a dose of injector cleaner. Been OK since. But the plug wires and caps were the biggest difference (which were done later).
Mike H
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:14 am

PS: the NGK LZFH is the one with no internal resistor don't need it if the plugs include resistors (which the normally spec'd ones do), ditto copper leads are not resistive, whereas the OEM carbon core ones are, but again not necessary if the plugs have them.

EDIT: pix
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Plug Leads_2889.jpg
-
LZFH+LB seal.jpg
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:52 pm

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:14 am
PS: the NGK LZFH is the one with no internal resistor don't need it if the plugs include resistors (which the normally spec'd ones do), ditto copper leads are not resistive, whereas the OEM carbon core ones are, but again not necessary if the plugs have them.

EDIT: pix
-
Plug Leads_2889.jpg
-
LZFH+LB seal.jpg
What would be the connector on the spark pack side of the wire set? I assume that it is a standard ish connector. doing some digging around it looks like Harley uses a similar or same connector. It dose seem that the coils have issues pushing through 6Kohm so lower resistance would be good

I do differently have an issue with at least one cable, Im going to replace the pair. when I adjusted spark gap I ended up with an almost dead miss on the right cylinder. I use the left throttle body to do my idle adjust, moved my wires across the byc, more or less no longer high idles off the left throttle body. more importantly the right cylinder is not making the cat glow
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by Lets_Eat_Paint_Chips » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:53 am

Well i have made some copper wire spark plug cables, it now runs consistently mediocre. runs fine without load and warm, requiters some throttle to start. doesn't develop low end torque, runs out of steam a little early, think my left fuel injector is not working properly, right side injector louder than left.
so the parts cannon begins.
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Re: 2017 Gear Up, Rough Idle, Poor low end power, Somewhat hard start

Post by windmill » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:32 am

I'm curious about the method used to hear the injectors.
Barry

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