S.O.B.

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
Forum rules
Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
User avatar
scottmastrocinque
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 am
Location: Findlay, Ohio

S.O.B.

Post by scottmastrocinque » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:26 am

Well, not even 500 miles and I'm truly pi$$ed at my new 2017 Ural.

I removed the fuel tank again today so I could gain access to the underside to wire in my new Fiamm horns and USB power outlet for my dash to power my iPhone. I've pulled this tank before, so I thought it would go better this time. Nope...

First mega-gripe... Who is the idiot that designed this fuel tank which has absolutely no single low spot from which to drain out ALL of the gas before removing the tank. Also, hasn't Ural ever heard of quick disconnect fittings which shutoff when disconnected? No, not this thing, it pours gas out of every stupid orifice all over the damn place. What a mess. I've ordered a set of screw type fuel clamps so that I can physically shut off every tube from leaking on removal but damn, who would have though this necessary in 2017?

Next, after finally getting everything back on the bike, I put some fuel back into the tank, prime the pump allowing the gas to pump through a temporary fuel line back into my gas can, reconnect the fuel rail connector, and try to start the bike. The bike won't start. I stop, check everything again which looks great, and try again. Nothing, cranks but won't start. It is then that I realize, I don't hear the fuel pump spinning up anymore!

What!?!

I pull the fuel tank again except this time, I couldn't drain the gas off using the pump because the damn thing isn't working. Gravity doesn't work because there is no single low spot in the tank. Gas goes everywhere as I struggle to remove the tank. Stupidest design I have ever seen... Truly inexcusable.

I check all connections and backbone wiring to make sure I didn't pull something, or whatever. I can find nothing. I check all of the fuses under the side panel. No blown fuses. All of the mini relays I have to presume are working fine. I hear some of them tick "off and on" with the ignition and engine cutoff switch.

I even pull the fuel pump and the connector to make sure it is okay. Everything looks good and I hadn't touched any of this before the problem and I am stumped. I put my voltmeter on the fuel pump connector. I have to use sewing needles clipped in my alligator teeth clamps of my multimeter in order to try and get a reading from the worlds tiniest female connector ever made (the fuel pump connector) and no matter what I do, I can get no voltage reading at all! What in the world?!? It could be me, because as I said, these are some super microscopic tiny holes in this connector but I've read others just like it 100 times using the same technique. I don't know...

I examine everything again, check all fuses again, visually inspect the wiring loom all under the fuel tank to make sure nothing was pinched, pulled, or rubbed apart. Nothing.

No matter what I do, I can find nothing to indicate why this fuel pump is now refusing to spin up at all, nor why there is no power seemingly coming from the ECU to it. There is no MFI lamp lit on the speedometer.

I am dreading trailering my bike all the way down to Heindl to get them to look at it under warranty but unless somebody has a good idea, I'm just stumped and pi$$ed as can be. I've been wrenching engines of every kind and type for over 40 years but this thing has me scratching my head and cussing and spitting.

Anybody have experience like this and has some wisdom? I'd sure appreciate it right now.

I've attached a HIGH RESOLUTION version of the wiring diagram. Maybe somebody sees something I am not.

Thanks!
Ural+Production+Harness+V1_9+17Apr2017.pdf
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by scottmastrocinque on Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Scott -

2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara - "Ekaterina - a.k.a. Katya - The Farkle Queen"
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX - "Stella"
1997 Moto Guzzi V-10 Centauro - "Clelia"
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evolution - "Chiara"

Noli pati a scelestis opprimi. :cheers:

User avatar
windmill
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 6557
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:17 am
Location: Kent, Wa

Re: S.O.B.

Post by windmill » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:13 am

Ivan Itchnscrach of the peoples design bureau engineered it with a 5 year production plan goal........and vodka was probably involved.....
But seriously, its just a quirk of using 1960's tooling in 2017.

I hate electrical issues, they're usually something simple yet hard to find.

The fuel pump worked after you put everything back together until you reconnect the fuel line?

My only thought would be perhaps you inadvertently pulled on the wire, and to check the voltage from the ECU to the pump by probing the wires rather than at the plug in case a wire got disconnected from a pin in the connector, check continuity of the pumps connector pins for the same thing.

Do you get a MIL light if you disconnect the pump?
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

User avatar
Tomcatfixer
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:10 am
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S.O.B.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:40 am

Is the Big Red Switch on? Pump no worky without Big Red Switchy. I gotta ask the obvious, because it wasn't mentioned.
- Chad

Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 1999 Ural Tourist "Desert DisGrace: the Iron (Oxide) Curtain", 1994 Honda VFR750F, 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazer

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
1986 Yamaha FZX700S (a different one than above)

User avatar
windmill
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 6557
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:17 am
Location: Kent, Wa

Re: S.O.B.

Post by windmill » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:46 am

Tomcatfixer wrote:Is the Big Red Switch on? Pump no worky without Big Red Switchy. I gotta ask the obvious, because it wasn't mentioned.
That was my first thought too, but he mentioned it cranks, which it wouldn't do with it in the off position. He also mentioned that the fuel pump worked until he reconnected the fuel line.

I could be wrong, but considering the circumstances, I seriously doubt something just failed, or that the items he wired in are causing it. I would guess something got disconnected. No fuses blown, and no MIL light could mean 1 wire to the pump is broken? But I don't know how the system detects faults.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

hotflash44
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 3772
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: S.O.B.

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:30 am

as mentioned by Darrell( Albuquralque), in his drain the tank video, if you use the Delphi pump to drain the tank don't run it so long as to run the pump dry, it will according to his post destroy the pump. just to cross this off the list use a set of 12v jumper wires to see if the pump will start humming.IMHO :? :( Please don't get frustrated as i feel your pain its something simple probably like a bad connection as the bike ran before you started working on it. this is truly your basic /classic problem go back to the very first thing you touched, and work backward you will locate the problem, of course unless you killed the Pump. that would come under the category of learning the hard way.good luck. :cheers:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

User avatar
scottmastrocinque
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 am
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Re: S.O.B.

Post by scottmastrocinque » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:27 am

Tomcatfixer wrote:Is the Big Red Switch on? Pump no worky without Big Red Switchy. I gotta ask the obvious, because it wasn't mentioned.
No sure wether to be insulted by this, or to be insulted by this. Come on. LOL.
Last edited by scottmastrocinque on Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Scott -

2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara - "Ekaterina - a.k.a. Katya - The Farkle Queen"
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX - "Stella"
1997 Moto Guzzi V-10 Centauro - "Clelia"
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evolution - "Chiara"

Noli pati a scelestis opprimi. :cheers:

User avatar
scottmastrocinque
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 am
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Re: S.O.B.

Post by scottmastrocinque » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:31 am

hotflash44 wrote:as mentioned by Darrell( Albuquralque), in his drain the tank video, if you use the Delphi pump to drain the tank don't run it so long as to run the pump dry, it will according to his post destroy the pump... :cheers:
LMAO - Is the default setting for help always on the presumption that the person asking for help is a complete idiot?

I know how fuel pumps work. I know they don't like running at all without fuel in them. You guys crack me up.
- Scott -

2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara - "Ekaterina - a.k.a. Katya - The Farkle Queen"
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX - "Stella"
1997 Moto Guzzi V-10 Centauro - "Clelia"
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evolution - "Chiara"

Noli pati a scelestis opprimi. :cheers:

User avatar
chaos2
Order of Suvarov
Order of Suvarov
Posts: 4416
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:58 am
Location: sw ohio

Re: S.O.B.

Post by chaos2 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:36 am

try calling Heindl, they're very helpful diagnosing over the phone
past afflictions include TR motocars and bikes, R60/2 & a R65, MGs, and a Citroen.
Now a 2012 FF GU and an 87 K75s
dual K&N cones on PVC intake, 40/137.5
Raceway needles
Modtop exhaust
$29 VW Hydraulic steering dampener

User avatar
Tomcatfixer
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:10 am
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: S.O.B.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:06 am

LMAO - Is the default setting for help always on the presumption that the person asking for help is a complete idiot?
Yes. It's safer than assuming that the question-poser is an ASE-certified master mechanic.
- Chad

Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 1999 Ural Tourist "Desert DisGrace: the Iron (Oxide) Curtain", 1994 Honda VFR750F, 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazer

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
1986 Yamaha FZX700S (a different one than above)

Obo Scribe
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:35 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: S.O.B.

Post by Obo Scribe » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:12 am

"No sure wether to be insulted by this, or to be insulted by this. Come on. LOL."

"LMAO - Is the default setting for help always on the presumption that the person asking for help is a complete idiot?

I know how fuel pumps work. I know they don't like running at all without fuel in them. You guys crack me up."

Maybe it's because I'm not an American, but these responses come across as ungrateful, or 'arsey', as we might say here. Responding to offers of help like this makes me think if I knew the fix for your bike, I'd be tempted to keep it to myself. Or maybe that's just me.
2003 750 Dalesman, 1975 CB400/4, '93 CBR900RR, 2012 DL650, 91 Ducati 750SS . Twenty eight bikes in the last six years, my missus thinks I have a bike problem. :boogie: ..
Chorley, Lancashire, England
'Oboto Sobatmas' - sponsored by Deuchars, fuelled by stupidity. http://obotosobatmas.blogspot.co.uk/

User avatar
wooden nickel
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:55 pm
Location: Louisville, KY 40216

Re: S.O.B.

Post by wooden nickel » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:13 am

I am not really sure how the people here are supposed to divine your level of experience. There have been others here who have forgotten the BRS and have not known the pump uses fuel to cool and lube the pump.
A coupling in the crossover and a couple of fuel line clamps are all most of us need to pull the tank. I carry them with me and I have spare screw clamps for the fuel and air hoses.
I may not be good, but I'm slow.
Nick
2014 M70 Retros, the sports car of Urals.

hotflash44
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 3772
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: S.O.B.

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:19 am

you don't know me, i don't know you, just trying to be of help,thin skin isn't where we need to be.IMHO of course :? :cheers:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

stagewex
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:45 pm
Location: New Rochelle, New York

Re: S.O.B.

Post by stagewex » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:23 am

I can only add (since I have a carbie rig) that yes... the tank will alway leak from everywhere unless you plug it first or install quick-disconnects. I must have had my tank off for various things (cleaning/paint/swap/electrical/etc) 15 times in 11 years. It'll always been a PITA.

If you do get the quick-disconnect whether the plastic type they sell at Raceways site or the metal type that you can get at a BMW dealer be aware that the vulnerable weakness are the tiny rubber "O Rings". They disintegrate after a period of time and for some reason... only when you are taking the tank off which is the ultimate irony.

Hope you find your problem and it is something simple, usually is with these beasts. I know efi folks have had issues when running their tanks dry. Sounds like you have that (maybe) and disrupted something else in the Ural universe. Assume it was was running fine before your horn installation project.
Stagewex

2007 Ural Patrol, 2006 Yamaha TW200, 1995 BMW K75, 1991 Honda XR250L, 1969 BMW r60/2 US model

User avatar
scottmastrocinque
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 am
Location: Findlay, Ohio

Re: S.O.B.

Post by scottmastrocinque » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:45 am

Thank you everyone for your input.

I thought I was clear about my skill set when I wrote "I've been wrenching engines of every kind and type for over 40 years but this thing has me scratching my head and cussing and spitting. Anybody have experience like this and has some wisdom? I'd sure appreciate it right now."

I thought that being asked if I had the engine run switch turned on or if I ran the pump dry, was a little over the top. I responded in laughter. That humor was missed completely. My bad I guess.

And for the record, if I knew the answer to a person's problem here or on any other board I frequent, I certainly wouldn't withhold the information because I thought the person was "ungrateful, or 'arsey'", especially having never met them or spoken directly in a PM with them. That would be quite simply in my book, pure malfeasance.

This is the problem with stupid texts; no tone, no inflection, no non-verbal cues. Just people getting butt-sore. I wasn't angry, ungrateful, or arsey, I was just surprised and laughed about it as it struck me as quasi-patronizing. Apologies tendered!

In any event, applying 12V across the pump and it runs, so the issue is elsewhere. The hunt continues!

Thanks again everybody all the same! :cheers: :beerchug:
- Scott -

2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara - "Ekaterina - a.k.a. Katya - The Farkle Queen"
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX - "Stella"
1997 Moto Guzzi V-10 Centauro - "Clelia"
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evolution - "Chiara"

Noli pati a scelestis opprimi. :cheers:

User avatar
Burt1713
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2018
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:46 pm
Location: Olney Illinois

Re: S.O.B.

Post by Burt1713 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:01 pm

Have you checked the voltage at the fuel pump connector with the pump unplugged? From what i remember both positive and negative for the fuel pump come from the left ECU. If you can find where the wires leave the ECU and check for voltage there it could narrow down things.
2017 cT "Woody Moose"
2002 Ural solo bobber/chopper (work in progress) “Symphony of Destruction”
1997 Sportster "Scarlet Speedster"
1984 Honda Interceptor "Cornfield Express" (Gone)

Post Reply