What do to once you fly the chair

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Kkopp2005
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What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Kkopp2005 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:11 pm

Just got my ural a couple weeks back and have been spending this time practicing in a parking lot (cone drills, stopping, etc.) I’ve been able to fly the chair while going in circles but have been having a hard time keeping the chair up for an extended period of time. I believe it’s because I end up backing off the throttle. But this has got me thinking about the first on ramp I need to take at 30mph. Once the chair is lifted how do you proceed to drive? I read on this forum that you can use countersteering, but can you really countersteer when your handlebars are rotated 30-40 degrees? Is it more about keeping calm and just continuing the turn? Any experiences and/or advise would be great!

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Lokiboy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:50 pm

Your goal is to stay in your lane. Either by a) maintaining the turn and/or b) slowing and bring the chair down.

Don’t worry about or over think what kind of steering you're doing - normal or counter steering it makes no difference, because you do what’s necessary.

Staying in your lane is the goal and only practice will get you there
Last edited by Lokiboy on Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Happytrails » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:54 pm

In the same boat as you and got my Ural a couple weeks ago. And like you I've been parking lot practicing and feeling pretty good. Have been able to fly the chair the length of the parking lot a few times now. Also been practicing swerving and emergency stops. Mostly just trying to get the feel for when the chair starts to come up so when it happens out on the road its not such a big deal.

Your right about the throttle. Letting off it should make the chair come back down. Like you mention keeping calm and being comfortable with it.

Have read about some accidents where the chair came up in a right hand turn and it caused the riders to go wide on there turn into the oncoming lane. Going to keep practicin on it so that doesn't happen. :)

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Last edited by Happytrails on Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Lofty » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:03 am

I just mentioned this subject.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=46924&p=665351#p665351

Continued practice is the key. I used a church parking lot to familiarize myself with the manner in which the rig responded to control inputs whilst the sidecar was in the air. I concentrated on handlebar control and throttle manipulation whilst the sidecar is raised, getting used to the sensations. This is what allowed me to keep the chair in the air a bit longer, during each practice session. The effort paid dividends, as the preceding link clearly illustrates. I can now confidently ride as long as I prefer with the sidecar up in the air, and with it raised high enough to scrape the exhaust.

Try not to overthink this, or allow yourself to be distracted by suggestions regarding "countersteering", etc. That is a real thing, yes, but the physics of sidecar driving don't cross pollinate very well with single track motorcycles. Again, focus on the sum of things here being your hands on the grips whilst flying the chair. The skill will come to you organically.

Just keep at it, and you'll gain the awareness of how to drive the rig straight, or through a turn, with the chair raised for as long as necessary and with a comfortable feeling of control. That's how you proceed to drive.

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by rivers » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:50 am

"Flying the Chair" and the tub wheel lifting a bit on a right turn are two different scenarios and require different reactions. I am NOT an expert sidecar pilot so keep that in mind. Since your concern is really about lifting the wheel on a right turn I would "lightly/briefly one finger touch the front brake.. for just a tad" to plant the tub wheel back on the ground. I would NOT chop the throttle or panic brake. Other than throw your weight(right cheek off the seat) to the tub side you don't want to do "any" drastic brake/throttle/steering panic maneuvers in a curve. Countersterring is pretty much a 2 wheeler thing and doesn't pertain to hacks till you are flying the chair on purpose and want to keep the tub in the air. For normal riding set up for the curve, adjust speed, body, a$$ on/off the seat position BEFORE you enter the curve. Good to be concerned about freeway on/off ramps especially off ramps cause they are too often 'decreasing radius curves' that can bite an unaware Buick driver but critical for a sidecar pilot if not prepared. :(
If the curve is new to you on a Ural (not on your Miata experience) slow down and set up ahead of time. There are no shortcuts to the learning curve piloting an outfit. Ya just gotta spend the saddle time...approach with caution till you develop the skills,auto responses,muscle memories and confidence required. Even the learning curve is great fun just don't get over enthusiastic till you know your and your Urals limits.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Mr Wazzock » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:41 am

Yes it seems to me flying the chair on purpose, and having it happen "by accident" in a sharp righthand turn, are 2 quite different things. In the first case you initiated it and have control (presumably), in a straight line, in the second case your options are severely restricted by the need to maintain the turn, else you are into the opposing lane / kerb / crash barrier or whatever. What I've been told is to lean over the sidecar (may need to extend to shifting your butt sideways out the saddle) to shift the C of G, and bring it down. The guy who give me lessons in the beginning said you shouldn't let the sidecar lift in the first place. In other words it's all about preparation for the radius of the curve. I.e. slow into it, then accelerate out. The accelerating means the bike follows a radius around the chair, which helps the turn and keeps the chair down.

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Tomcatfixer » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:53 am

If I'm entering a fast right-hand turn and trying to maintain speed, I slide almost off of the saddle and shift the majority of my body weight over the sidecar to give me an extra little edge against the hack wheel coming up. It's similar to sailing.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Penrod » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:01 am

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Tomcatfixer demonstrates advanced chair flying while jousting and ring spearing at the CRAP Rally in May. Tinfoil hat is optional.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by dogboy443 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:39 am

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:53 am
If I'm entering a fast right-hand turn and trying to maintain speed, I slide almost off of the saddle and shift the majority of my body weight over the sidecar to give me an extra little edge against the hack wheel coming up. It's similar to sailing.

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Tomcatfixer » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:43 am

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Peter Pan » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:14 pm

This question brings me to a new training practice....get a traffic free training area , let's say a recently paved residential area befor the constructors start to pull in.
...put in a right bend a wood wedge and try to hit that whedge with the sidecar tire....
After a few tries, you will definetely have learned to avoid fallen rocks on the road!!!!
To me it happened once with a sugar bead, that send me in front of a upcoming van into the harvested field, just barely avoiding an Linden alley tree.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Kkopp2005 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Thanks for the tips everyone this is all good stuff. Gonna do a little bit more practice tonight then venture out. I live in a small town so I won't have any problem taking turns at my own pace.

@Mr Wazzock - you mention accelerating out of the turn, to make sure I understand. I should just maintain the same speed and line and get through the curve?

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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by sagerat » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:32 pm

Acceleration: bike wants to pass hack.

Deceleration: hack wants to pass bike.

BTW on RH turns besides hanging off, I’ve even lifted my left foot off of the peg to keep all my weight on right foot and the hack when it’s a really sharp RH turn.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by RC20 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:00 pm

While I don't own a Ural yet, I have done a lot of reading.

My take is that there is a great deal of mis-information and that was confirmed by this link. It takes a bit of wading through it, but the heart of it is solid as best I can tell from virtually no experience.

I am not sure most understand it and until I read this one, none of it resonated. Too much theory and opinion and not the hard corp what happens, whats the issue and how normal and the correction(s) available

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/sidecarbasics.htm

If others want to disagree that is fine but the reality looks to be.

1. The Hack going light going right turn is normal. Unless you are really pushing it, its not going to flip.
a. Going lite is not the same thing as controls reversal.
b. If you look at the pictures, controls reversal takes place at a very high lift point. If you are there accidentally you likely are gone anyway.
c. Life a fire triangle, it takes all 3 elements to start/sustain/ or ramp up (or make more lift)
1. In this case you can roll off the throttle a bit (not slam it off) and it will stabilize or drop. We do it all the time in cars, bicycle and motorcycles. Then we adjust the trajectory as you get into under-steer, over steer (so little as to make no difference in most case.
2. You can simply maintain as its not dangerous but if you are not comfortable with it, that an experience aspect and you can trim it back
3. You can brake a bit (or a lot) . Again it depends on comfort, is it getting worse, have you pushed it too hard and need to make radical adjustment?
4. Worst you can make your turn wider, that will put you in the wrong lane quickly, so its more a absolutely you have hosed it and its an emergency and if there is no oncoming you may use it.
5. Including the following you can take several actions at the same time.

As for leaning into the right turn. I think that falls into these aspects
a. You are not comfortable with the lift and its fine to do so but it does take some attention off the road.
b. You have not made a conscious decision to learn the characteristics of the lift and its reactive.

How I am going to feel I don't know yet. The one short ride I had there were no comfort issues. The owner told me how it would act and I was completely at ease with it.

I wrestled and I am comfortable with balance and angles, so I suspect I will go with the lift being normal and not take actions unless I have done something wrong and put myself into the fire triangle and need to.

I once put my brothers Formula 400 Fire-bird into a U corner at too fast a speed and I had not expected to be nearly that sharp. Mistakes are made. In that case, being a truck owner, I had not a clue how good that car was. Braking was too late, it shot me out the far end without even a tire screech.

While there was zero harm other than the mental picture of a balled up car and a rightfully upset brother (my death or injury m was not what I was upset about!) , its a lesson that we can go over an edge we don't intend to.
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Re: What do to once you fly the chair

Post by Happytrails » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:02 pm

Does speed make any difference when flying the chair? 10mph vs 45mph does flying the chair react a little different?

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