825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

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Eric N
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825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:51 pm

Finally got around to finishing the assembly of my Gear Up. 825cc pistons and 2020 breather along with M2Boxer EFI.

Artsemi spent an hour helping get the fuel injection sorted this morning. He's able to do it remotely, plug laptop into Ural and then he remotes in with AnyDesk.

Leaving the house going up a hill I was very light on the throttle and it just wanted to climb with little effort.

First 2 miles were awesome. Substantial change in performance.

Mile 2 there was a small hickup leaving a stoplight, engine sputtered for a fraction of a second before accelerating again. I'm thinking it could have been an air bubble in the fuel line or similar and it went away quickly.

Mile 4, a hill I normally had to full throttle was a relaxed throttle in 4th. I was cruising 45 down the road and barely touching the throttle on mixed rolling hills.

Mile 7 the heat from the engine started feeling warmer than normal. Decided to make a loop back home and test some inclines that I always had to downshift on. Didn't have to downshift. Also made a right turn at a light, forgot to downshift and 3rd gear and 20mph is pretty close to lug territory. I think it was full lug before.

Mile 10 the bike is starting to get very warm and if I put in the clutch it won't idle but just dies. Still pulls strong uphill.

Mile 12 and the bike dies at intersections, had to keep throttle twisted. It is feeling very warm, I'm already partway back home. Debated pulling over to let the bike cool, but decided to just go 25mph on slower roads and let it relax. get air blowing over it. It liked that and went up and down steeper hills with minimal effort.

Mile 18 bike died pulling into garage and was warmer than I think I'd ever felt a Ural. The headers weren't glowing but may have been pretty close.

I sent Artsemi what I think is the correct log from the ride and a copy of the map. I think we're running super lean, but other than that it's a great performance increase. I'm going to trust his knowledge for tweaking the 825cc map before I screw it up. If we can richen it up to cool the bike a little, while adding a bit more power, I think it will be win win.
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mr. cob
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by mr. cob » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:59 pm

Howdy Eric N,

Do you have the high compression, or the low compression pistons in your 825 kit? The high compression pistons didn't last for me and the engine ran hot and in the end melted, the low compression set is still going strong.

Dave
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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:23 am

Hey Dave,

Low compression. I read your reports before going this route and saw the photos of the melty, any performance gain wasn't worth the short life expectancy. The low compression pistons were slightly heavier than the stock Ural and felt very solid. I want this to be a reliable engine, happy to have a performance increase but wanted to keep regular reliability if possible.

I believe my hot is due to a modified 750 map and the bike's just too lean.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by mr. cob » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:30 am

Eric N wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:23 am
Hey Dave,

Low compression. I read your reports before going this route and saw the photos of the melty, any performance gain wasn't worth the short life expectancy. The low compression pistons were slightly heavier than the stock Ural and felt very solid. I want this to be a reliable engine, happy to have a performance increase but wanted to keep regular reliability if possible.

I believe my hot is due to a modified 750 map and the bike's just too lean.
Howdy Eric,

So far I am happy with the low compression pistons, I don't have that many klicks on them but the ones I have put on it were HARD running. I am using pumper flat slide carbs, jetted properly, the engine seems to run at normal temperatures. My only problem now is the constant heat induced failure of the C-5 ignition, I have had it with electronic ignitions, the Ducati system worked well until Hall Sensors started to melt and are now becoming hard to find, "Pete T" is going to build me a dual point system that will work with my dual spark plug heads.

Dave
Mr. Cob

Driver of the "Predator" a highly modified 2005 Gear-Up.

Driver of the "Canyon Acrobat" a 2008 Gear-Up, this rig is now driven primarily by "Mrs. Cob"

My Photo galleries, http://mr-cob.smugmug.com/

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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:13 pm

Timing Map.JPG
I think I found one cause, I dunno if I messed this up or if it came this way (I think I messed something up).

My understanding of the stock Ural timing curve is 4 degrees at 1050 rpm and 18 degrees at 1800 rpm with 18 degrees being the max advance.

I created a terrible map reducing anything above 18 degrees to 18 degrees and knocking the 5 degrees advance down in the low rpm range.

First test ride was much cooler. It's still running too hot, but I think we're closer.

Adding richer fuel mix right now, just a fractional increase all across the map to see what range that puts us in.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:18 am

:lurker:
- Chad

Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "Little Red Bear", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", Mid-Nineties Ural Tourist "The Heap", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:56 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:18 am
:lurker:
I think it's going to work out well.

Artsemi is looking at the logs, gave him some specs, I think piston clearance is ok at 0.09mm though some of the hot is due to the engine adjusting to the new cylinders.

The last ride last night was almost normal Ural heat and the engine started to cool down a little. It's gonna take tweaking and I might go get it Dyno'ed, but I feel we're ballpark close.

Learning the different settings and adjust ability, I'm very happy to have the M2Boxer vs the ElectroJet or Kehein retrofit, there's a wealth of options and while the Kehein is no doubt very well tuned for the 750, I'm enjoying the 825cc change.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:18 pm

I was gonna ask you about clearance. Is that the same measurement that cateyetech used for his 825? Gotta give my machinist good numbers.
- Chad

Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "Little Red Bear", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", Mid-Nineties Ural Tourist "The Heap", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:30 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:18 pm
I was gonna ask you about clearance. Is that the same measurement that cateyetech used for his 825? Gotta give my machinist good numbers.
Claus has suggested 0.08mm and I trust him. I think a normal 750 is .07 and I wanted to be a little looser. I'm not sure about cateyetech's specs.

I sent the info to Artsemi this morning, he might have a better figure for the piston clearance, I have seen as high as 0.15 but that might be max before needing to upsize the piston.
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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:53 pm

After 100 miles it is dialing in better. Artsemi has been helping me understand the settings, with warnings about being stupid and either killing the bike or bricking the ECU.

The ability to adjust timing and fuel is far beyond dialing in carbs. The profile can be adjusted for engine temperatures, giving a richer mixture to the cold engine and also enriching again as the engine gets hot. The timing seems to work fine at a max of 20 degrees, I've tried several curves and there is a seat of the pants feel going from 18 degrees to 20, and less gain above that.

Wideband controllers are on order, the narrowband really would need a dynotune to get sorted properly and I think with wideband and butt dyno I can have fun with minor tweaks.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by jeffsaline » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:25 pm

Are you sure you don't want to go leaner as the engine reaches operating temperatures? A cold engine uses a choke/enrichener to supply extra fuel for starting and needs less fuel when the engine gets hot.

Just a thought.

Best,

Jeff
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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:39 pm

jeffsaline wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:25 pm
Are you sure you don't want to go leaner as the engine reaches operating temperatures? A cold engine uses a choke/enrichener to supply extra fuel for starting and needs less fuel when the engine gets hot.

Just a thought.

Best,

Jeff
Hi Jeff,

Providing more fuel to an overheating air cooled engine reduces power and helps with the cooling cycle. I am sorry for the confusion, I am using the term "hot" to describe an engine that is beyond operating temperature.

You are correct that during normal operation you will go leaner as the engine gets warmer and reaches normal operating temperature. However with carbs there is a potential to really cook the engine, at a intake side head temperature of 200C a Ural is overheating. The exhaust side is breaking down oil and the engine makes unhappy sounds. This can happen if you leave it idling for long in the garage or on extended rides at full throttle. With the M2Boxer, at about 180C I have it programmed to start enrichening the mixture again. This extra fuel reduces power, prevents idle, and helps with a cooling cycle for the overheated engine.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by jeffsaline » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:58 pm

Eric N,

Yup, we were both talking fruit but you were talking apples and I was talking oranges. Makes sense to me now that I understand what you are trying to accomplish.

Best,

Jeff
Jeff Saline
2010 Gear Up
-Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two
-Just because something isn't true, no reason you can't believe it. Hub McCann Second Hand Lions
-Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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Eric N
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by Eric N » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm

200 miles on the engine and she's starting to wear in nicely.

Idle issue is mostly solved by adjusting the idle and fuel mixture. Header's still at the welder for the 18mm 02 bungs, stock Ural is 12mm and couldn't wideband that. Should have the wideband auto-tune running Saturday and we'll see how close the fuel map is.
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Re: 825cc M2Boxer EFI first ride

Post by RC20 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:40 pm

Interesting reading.
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