BMW vs Ural engine debate

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windmill
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BMW vs Ural engine debate

Post by windmill » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:31 am

This could get ugly but I'll ask any way. I know somebody who would like to put together an older Russian rig without the performance, and reliability issues that come with the older Ural / Dnepr engines, and that will be up to everyday use. What would be more cost effective? A BMW conversion, or a factory new Ural 750 engine? From what I understand, the BMW engines that will work in a Russian rig's are in short supply as the bikes are quite popular, and expensive these days. Combine that and older BMW parts being VERY expensive, a conversion can end up costing much more than using a new Ural engine. Dont older BMW's have many of the same problems that Ural engines have? Are there really major performance advantages to the BMW engine? I am very happy with My 07 Patrol as is, but a new Ural is not an option for many these days.

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Post by cubituscubitus » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:44 am

Howdy Windmill,
Here on this side of the pond, BMW conversions aren't rare.
The main issue is that you have to machine an iron piece to be installed between the BMW engine and the Ural/Dnepr transmission.
It works well as long as you're light on the throttle, since these German flat twins have much torque -more than actually needed I'd say. So final drives or/and rear wheel grooves may suffer from that huge amount of torque and power.
Here"s a pic of a BMW-engined Ural. :)
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Post by valicaddy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:48 am

I would say a new Ural engine. Old BMW parts are indeed expensive, you have to work, rebuild, and so on. And they are not bulletproof. Neither the Ural, but ...

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jim
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Post by jim » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:09 am

i think Ural should have URAL engine :twisted:

all this BMW engine in russian iron is just wrong, REAL MEN, russian engines not them German copies :lol: :lol:
2006/7 ural dalesman

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George Butz
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Post by George Butz » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:59 am

jimmyocharlie wrote:i think Ural should have URAL engine :twisted:

all this BMW engine in russian iron is just wrong, REAL MEN, russian engines not them German copies :lol: :lol:
I have to agree.....Call me a purest, but the only other engine that should ever be in a Russian frame, should run on diesel fuel. :D
Otherwise, just get a Beemer if you need one......
In central Europe, things are probably a bit different, and you put together what you need from what is at hand. :oops:
Russian bikes are relatively new and a novelty here in the States. Only a handful of us use them as daily transportation.
An old Russian rig should be restored, not adulterated with "foreign" parts. :P
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Post by pigdog » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:09 pm

While you can put in a Beemer engine and get increased performance, you still be running with older Russian gearboxs, FDs and brakes, none of which are really up to long hard runs like the Beemer engine could put them through.

Contact Richard Winter through the board. He can explain everthing to you, what to expect, costs, etc.
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Post by Bural » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:33 pm

To answer your question, you can buy a complete BMW bike and have your gearbox modified for less than the price of a new Russian powerplant. When you sell the parts not used from the BMW parts bike, you could end up getting your engine free. Used BMW parts are very reasonable, and usually better quality than new Russian parts.
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Post by n3303j » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:34 pm

I bought my '97/'06 for transportation. I'd love a 750 or so BMW engine in the rig. I'm not looking to go faster or harder, just quieter and more reliably.

I've put 5,000 kilometers on her so far and she always gets me there but sometimes she if "fussy". The Keihin carbs seem quite sensitive to everything going on around them. Fuel consumption seems higher than it could be. Timing/charging gear train makes more noise than necessary. She sometimes burps/farts/wheezes, clears her throat and then again is good for the remainder of the week?

My 43 year old 600 cc BMW engine is "set it and forget it" good. If you get it correct it just stays there. The generation after that /5, /6 only got better.

For all the purists out there:

Please remove your Italian ignitions & brakes, Japanese Carbs & Alternators and non Russian bar controls. Might as well toss out your Herzog gears, SKF ball bearings and Heidenau Tires while you are at it. Maybe time to pull the non Russian Pistons & Rings too. Bet the seals are non Russian. What about the ModTop mufflers and the K&N Air filters; they're certainly not Soviet. And finally what about those locally produced maching gun mounts, spotlights, trunk locks, bumpers etc.

The current Ural is about as Russian as my wife's Toyota is American.

:D
Ron Cichowski

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Post by propwash » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:41 pm

+1
And go back to OHV 650cc.
I have NEVER seen a OHV 750cc in the normal Russian countryside.
n3303j wrote: For all the purists out there:

Please remove your Italian ignitions & brakes, Japanese Carbs & Alternators and non Russian bar controls. Might as well toss out your Herzog gears, SKF ball bearings and Heidenau Tires while you are at it. Maybe time to pull the non Russian Pistons & Rings too. Bet the seals are non Russian. What about the ModTop mufflers and the K&N Air filters; they're certainly not Soviet. And finally what about those locally produced maching gun mounts, spotlights, trunk locks, bumpers etc.

The current Ural is about as Russian as my wife's Toyota is American.

:D

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Post by chicagorandy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:00 pm

The debate is afoot! lol

It's yer bike, throw whatever the heck you want on it. But as others have/will post, you are not necessarily buying any more reliability of the rig as a complete unit by just swapping for a very fine Beemer engine.

Add the Beemer gearbox and final drive? Now yer talkin'....sort of....

You will still have the OEM Russian suspension/wiring/ignition/lighting system etc. and the older the Ural model the less reliable these systems were brand new, let alone now.

The latest version of the IMZ Ural (kinda-sorta-Russian/used to be Russian) sidecar motorcycle rig is quite reliable by all accounts, though also getting pretty pricey.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. I would also tend to side with the group that says adding a BMW engine (IMHO the heart of a motorcycle) does take away from calling it a Ural. Were you to put a Ural engine into a vintage BMW hack rig, I doubt BMW purists would still consider it authentic to their marque either.
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Post by Dwight » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:25 pm

chicagorandy wrote:It's yer bike, throw whatever the heck you want on it.
+1!

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Post by George Butz » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:26 pm

The engine is the soul of a rig.....everything else is an accessory.... :P
Nothing is totally pure anymore, agreed.
My idea of a dream Russian rig is a flathead. Wish I could afford to get one. :) They are not for everyone. They are what they are. My Patrol is what it is.
I'd throw a diesel in and old frame in a heartbeat if I could. :oops:
I wish they didn't have to outsource. I wish they would make them here ! :lol:
Ural may be going the way of Dnepr the way the world economy is going.
I'll keep crankin out the spot lights and gun mounts as they get harder to find. The days of $30.00 tires and cheap parts are over. :cry:
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windmill
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Post by windmill » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:38 pm

The way I see it, if You want a BMW engine, Put a hack on BMW, but it aint my money. He thinks Urals are cool, but is a die hard BMW rider. Almost 4k for a rebuilt salvage engine, and adapter? Just dosent sound like a good plan to me.

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Post by jim » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:18 pm

i fully accept that a BMW engine is probably better than even the most refined Ural. the rest of the BMW must be better made than the typical russian?????


is it not a case of wanting something russian, but can't go the whole nine yards and run a REAL flat twin????


next step is buying the basic small engine car and putting badges on off the bigger and better model!!!!!!!!!!


i have seen a BMW with a Ural (650cc) engine in :? :?
2006/7 ural dalesman

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Post by BillyG » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Or for less money than a new engine or conversion, buy used engine, g.b. and f.d....rebuild them them with better bearings, seals, rings...do a nice valve job, hand fit and assemble...and not need to worry anymore.
Bill Glaser
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The "Unofficial Ural Service Manual" can be viewed at: http://www.myural.com

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