Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Welcome Comrade! Pull up a barstool and order yourself a virtual vodka or Baltika and enjoy the camaraderie of other Soviet bloc bike enthusiasts. Nastrovya! This is the place for generic conversations about bikes and life in general.
Forum rules
This is the place for general discussion about motorcycles and life in general. No political posts. Use The "Other" Toy Box section for other bikes, guns, collectibles or hobbies.
User avatar
Desantnik-VDV
Comrade General
Comrade General
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:21 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Desantnik-VDV » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:25 pm

Drive in the center of the road at about 45 mph and then let go of the handlebars, see if it is tracking straight before it slowed down to 35 mph or a little above that speed. But any accel/de acceleration must be done on a dead flat part of the road and see how that feels.
Last edited by Desantnik-VDV on Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Alex
2007 GearUp - BMD (Боевая Машина Десанта)

The rest is just a History.

User avatar
Desantnik-VDV
Comrade General
Comrade General
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:21 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Desantnik-VDV » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:31 pm

Edit: double post...
Alex
2007 GearUp - BMD (Боевая Машина Десанта)

The rest is just a History.

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:48 pm

Don't forget tire wear. If the rig is properly aligned, tires should wear evenly. I measure tread depth on each side of the tread regularly.

Don't forget shock settings. Rule I was given is max preload while aligning. And make sure the floor is level before you start. I had to shim my hack wheel because my garage floor was not dead level in all directions.

Neutral handling is a relative term. On and off throttle will cause the rig to pull right and left. Not sure any rig will be neutral. Mine is pretty good, throttle reactions notwidthstanding. My goal was "neutral" while cruising with tub empty, meaning no accel nor decel. For my rig, that was 3/8" toe.

Crowned roads will always vary. I don't think I would want a rig that was neutral on a crowned road. It might pull you into opposing traffic in an emergency situation.
In 3000 miles the rear was half wore out, barely a 1 to 2/32 on the other two tires. Close tire monitoring will continue.

Driveway section I worked on is flat but seem irrelevant as I was adjusting the single dimension recommended for the handling condition. Use of the parallel straight sections would not change that.

Even on a 4 lane one way, the pull was to the right.

My take is that you spend your life mostly on the right side crown, you want it neutral there. Its not quite there but close.

Last sentence has me puzzled. Constant right pull that requires a pull on the left hand and a pull on the right handle is worse as you always are not optimum vs an emergency that I think you can not only easily respond to.

Maybe most important, it feels close to right now. I can sense the machine a lot better without the constant right pull.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

rougaroo
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 3893
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:58 am
Location: NC

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by rougaroo » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:34 pm

Found this from an ancient (2000) Ural manual. Good explanation of alignment & how to correct for left or right pull:
Sidecar Alignment.pdf
Rougaroo
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2003 Tourist - lotsa upgrades
2004 Troyka - work in progress

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:49 pm

That is interesting as the current manual states:

Check the toe-in while the motorcycle is running on the road. With the toe in properly adjusted, the motorcycle will not pull to either side while running at normal road speed. If it pulls right, increase toe in, if it pull left decrease the toe in.


As mine was steady right pull I increased the toe in and as would expect from the above, it got better (much better)
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
Snakeoil
Order of Suvarov
Order of Suvarov
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:45 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Snakeoil » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:02 pm

Last sentence has me puzzled. Constant right pull that requires a pull on the left hand and a pull on the right handle is worse as you always are not optimum vs an emergency that I think you can not only easily respond to.
I think I understand that sentence. :)

This was the basis for that statement. You wanted to make the bike neutral on a crowned road. A rig that is neutral on a flat road will normally generate a pull to the right. That means if you make it neutral on the crowned road you are putting a slight left pull into the rig to counter the force created by the crown. So, when you are on a flat road or even a crowned road and you have to slow quickly in an emergency situation, chopping the throttle will induce a pull to the left and I was thinking that combining that with a alignment induced pull to the left could cause you to turn into oncoming traffic. That's why I said "I think" because I'm not sure what the severity might be.

I imagine most of the roads in Alaska are 2-lane and crowned, so I understand your desire to set the rig up to be neutral on crowned roads.

The reason I mentioned a level surface is step one is getting the hack chassis level. Yes, you can do it by measuring the distance to the pavement/floor on both sides of the rig. Level is really parallel to the ground. It's just so easy to put a level across the bottom of the chassis. And you will probably need to recheck chassis level after each adjustment is made, if my experience was typical. So the ability to check with a level makes it that much easier. It also makes the lean out easy to measure as well since most folks use an angle gauge with bubble level. I use a precision protractor with a bubble level just because I own one.
Regards,
Rob
Proud member of the Peanut Gallery
2000 Ural Tourist
40 Pilots, 122 Mains
Before you say something stupid, always ask yourself, "What would Harpo say?".

User avatar
Pterodactyl
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Aligning the Toe In

Post by Pterodactyl » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:24 pm

RC20 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:24 pm
With an area ice free and a sunny 32 degree day (West sun right into the front of the house so nicer than temp indicates), I tackled the adjustment.

The strut bolts were gorilla tight, though the thread lock nuts were not and the fastener for the frame adjustment was also normal tension.

First shot I got 3/16 change, as that was between my target of 1/8 to 1/4 left it at that and went and ran errands.

Huge difference. Almost neutral now. Wish I had been in position to do it sooner. Needed the long pattern box wrench, those nuts wold never have come off with the Ural tool kit.

Not quite all the right pull is gone and the rest of the maneuvering is also vastly improved as not overcoming that on top of other aspects.

Will probably nudge it another 1/8.

Method works and it will be interesting to see how rear tire does as I suspect the constant crab was why it had such rapid wear.
Did you try making the adjustment from the front or the rear?
Kevin
The Outpost, Silver City, MT
2018 Ural Gear Up, 2017 R1200GSA

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:34 pm

Just to be clear, nothing intended to be argumentative.

While most of the riding right now is local, its 40 miles freeway (between 6 and 4 lanes) to get out of town, then yes two lane.

Around town even the 4 lane one way tends to drain left though a few places it pitches the other way. Freeway is the same, tends to leand right. Even level it was a pull to the right at any speed.

Adjustment made at rear per recommended though I wondered initially on that. Struts were then adjusted to match up with the cycle. More on rear and very little on front (not sure they had that quite right). Lean is about 2 degrees.

I assume the dealer has a dimension for the front setup as well as the down-rake on the rear one (my adusment was only to the horizontal tube)

It rides so much better in that I can now feel the machine vs the pull it had to the right.

I had hoped to stay around Portland and check back in for the initial service and any questions, but it was horribly hot and not amenable to anything but get into the mountains where it was cool.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
Pterodactyl
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Pterodactyl » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:39 am

RC20 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:34 pm
Just to be clear, nothing intended to be argumentative.

While most of the riding right now is local, its 40 miles freeway (between 6 and 4 lanes) to get out of town, then yes two lane.

Around town even the 4 lane one way tends to drain left though a few places it pitches the other way. Freeway is the same, tends to leand right. Even level it was a pull to the right at any speed.

Adjustment made at rear per recommended though I wondered initially on that. Struts were then adjusted to match up with the cycle. More on rear and very little on front (not sure they had that quite right). Lean is about 2 degrees.

I assume the dealer has a dimension for the front setup as well as the down-rake on the rear one (my adusment was only to the horizontal tube)

It rides so much better in that I can now feel the machine vs the pull it had to the right.

I had hoped to stay around Portland and check back in for the initial service and any questions, but it was horribly hot and not amenable to anything but get into the mountains where it was cool.
Thanks. Spousal Unit is experiencing a similar issue with her 2019. I will try a minor adjustment. I have access to a Ural alignment tool which will make things a tad easier.

I wish I had owned a Ural when we lived in Fairbanks. Alaska seems to be an ideal place for a Ural. Not dealing with the 70-80 MPH speed limits we have her in Montana, and many great gravel roads to explore in Alaska and the Yukon. Lo
Kevin
The Outpost, Silver City, MT
2018 Ural Gear Up, 2017 R1200GSA

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:58 am

I plan on taking advantage of the Ural gravel ability this summer, stay tuned of course. Eagle is top on the list. The two wheel machines did not do gravel at all well, this will be a treat.

Let me know what your results are. It seems the numbers are an initial guide but adjust as needed.

Clearly the pusher tire was unhappy, half worn down in under 3000 miles. Now it feels mostly unloaded (or neutral) and easier to maneuver.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
Pterodactyl
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Pterodactyl » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:25 pm

Been to Eagle several times on a SnoGo and 2 wheeler. The group I'm in (Team Pterodactyl) has a memorial on a ridge outside of town where the ashes of several of our departed members are buried. I also rode to Eagle on the Yukon River on a SnoGo as a trail groomer for the Yukon Quest. Fairbanks to Whitehorse on a SnoGo and then back to Tok on the Top of the World Highway...... it was a blast.
Kevin
The Outpost, Silver City, MT
2018 Ural Gear Up, 2017 R1200GSA

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:47 pm

We lived at Northway back in the late 50s (FAA). We made a number of trips up and around the Top of the World. Grand area, love it. Great place to have your ashes.

I spotted a great campground just Tok side of Chicken on my last trip through (on the R80GS). The one Eagle side of Chicken was not as nice but happy for the respite (we burned 7 million acres that year and I was dodging fires half way from Whitehorse on) .

Quest is one rough race, true mushing.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

User avatar
Pterodactyl
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by Pterodactyl » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:56 pm

I went to my friend's place yesterday and picked-up the alignment tool and a Ural tool used to make the toe-in adjustment. I didn't even know the sercond tool existed until he handed it to me. It uses a turnbuckle like device to move the toe-in in or out. I think I'll go for 1/4" - 3/16" for the initial adjustment. We are fortunate that our dealer, who is 720 miles away, provided us with these tools free of charge.
Kevin
The Outpost, Silver City, MT
2018 Ural Gear Up, 2017 R1200GSA

RC20
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2020
Posts: 2081
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:59 am
Location: Anchorage AK

Re: Aligning the Toe In By Measurement at Rear Adjust

Post by RC20 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:36 pm

Cautions out on ensuring it does not fall one way or the other when the struts are free. Mine did not but will put jack under the left peg on the next work.

Nice. I wonder how hard it would be but just nudged it over with my knee and hit the 3/16 mark on the first shot.

I got out on the freeway (we do have a 40 mile one!) and it starts pulling right at 55 and over.

I got it on the level and checked the lean, its about 1 degree so will adjust that next. I have a Falk angle meter, liberated from work when they eliminated the Falk couplings. We never had it happen but they were oil filled couplers, when they went they spewed oil all over the place which meant conveyor and boxes, ungh. The Magnalinks were a huge improvement.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

Post Reply