Prices

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Robert Whitten
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Prices

Post by Robert Whitten » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:27 pm

Just curious.I know the Urals have the car on the side but, why are they comparable to the quality of a BMW in price (with a car attAched). Seems as they would be cheaper (quality/dependability considered) . Just an observation from a long time BMW rider.

Don't st me wrong but, In the 70edys a deAler offered me a new compete rig for less than I paid for the 04 I just bought. Quality has definitely came up but, not machining the price. On ordering parts as I have, they get Bmw price for (rough parts).

Asking for a Frend. :-)

Robert from TN.

& Yes I like the one I've got.
04 Troika,
10 BMW's
3 Harleys
1 Honda
1 Kawasaki
1 Suzuki

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windmill
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Re: Prices

Post by windmill » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:50 pm

The price of used vehicles is biased on demand, and the low demand for sidecar rigs is going to be a significant price leveler. The simplicity and comparatively low price of parts for a Ural can be attractive to those with a limited budget, or mechanical experience.

A new BMW rig from a custom builder is 2 to 3 times the price of a new Ural.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

Robert Whitten
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Re: Prices

Post by Robert Whitten » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 pm

Dealing with BMW's for over 30 years I beg your pardon. The Ural are just now entering 1983 technology with problems with mapping (which BMW had worked out by 1985). You can put a car on a slightly older R100 Airhead that's far superior to the Ural for less $$$. What I'm asking is why does Ural ask superior prices for inferior products.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Urnal. It's quaint & Old teck & I understand that. I can afford to play with it but most cannot. Why are the parts & accessories so expensive. Most can't afford them.

I called to get parts for my 04 & was informed they was not made any more. The 04 is considered OLD. You can get new parts for the BMW for a 1935 model if you have the coin. It's just ordered from the Father land & takes time.

I know I will be chastised from loyalist but, it is what it is & I except that. I still like my URNAL.

Robert Whitten from TN.
04 Troika,
10 BMW's
3 Harleys
1 Honda
1 Kawasaki
1 Suzuki

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chaos2
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Re: Prices

Post by chaos2 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:17 am

You can't really compare a tiny company like Ural to a giant like BMW. They both make motorcycles but that's about it.
past afflictions include limey motocars and bikes, R60/2, R65ls, and a Citroen.
Now an 87 K75s, DB Haanjo gravel bike, and a rusty 2012 GU bought new
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Raceway needles, Modtop exhaust
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Robert Whitten
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Re: Prices

Post by Robert Whitten » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:40 am

Not comparing company's. Comparing prices.
04 Troika,
10 BMW's
3 Harleys
1 Honda
1 Kawasaki
1 Suzuki

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windmill
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Re: Prices

Post by windmill » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:46 am

Comparing new and used is apples and oranges. BMW doesn't sell new RTR sidecar rigs. A new R nineT with DMC sidecar would be close to $30k. A Harley Freewheeler is $28k Vs. a cT at $16k.

Ural make around 1500 rigs a year in a remote location, they don't have the economics of scale, or easy access to the usual supply chains.

Ural Parts and accessories are certainly more expensive than Emgo/J.C. Whitney, but more affordable than most other OEM. They're not going to be priced like a UJM.

A Ural is a Ural, is it "inferior" for not being what it isn't? It's a subjective question.



"I know I will be chastised from loyalist but, it is what it is & I except that. I still like my URNAL."
Serious questions or just :pot:
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

Robert Whitten
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Re: Prices

Post by Robert Whitten » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:13 am

A touch of both. I like the designs of the Ural but I'm used to traveling thousands of miles trouble free on my old airhead with about the same mechanical service, ( do have newer oil heads & K bikes) which are old and reliable. Will be checking the reliability of the Urals in he future. Usually do around 25-30 K miles a year. We will see as the wife likes the car. Hope it works out. If not, I will put the car on one of my 1,000cc Airheads & go forth.
04 Troika,
10 BMW's
3 Harleys
1 Honda
1 Kawasaki
1 Suzuki

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Re: Prices

Post by windmill » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:21 am

FWIW, the handling, quality, reliability, and overall experience of a 2004 is going to have little in common for the good with a late model Ural.

The quality of your 2004 doesn't reflect or define the value of a new 2019.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Desantnik-VDV
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Re: Prices

Post by Desantnik-VDV » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:19 am

Prices are... 😜 crazy!
If you compare Ural parts and accessories prices, they are higher than Hondas and Harley. In last 15 years it went up about 300-400%. I remember when the 750cc engine and the gearbox together cost less than $2200.
There is a GearUp on eBay for $35,000 isn't it close to modern BMW price?
No competition.
Russians in Russia don't buy Ural.

We like how it looks and sound. Yes, it has a stronger, better frame suitable for a sidecar rig. It has a parking brake, etc.

Regarding the resale price... a guy who recently bought a 2018 GearUp, put a pile of accessories on it, etc. He was here with questions how to make it better...he is trying to sell it here and on eBay. He relisted a few times. His reserve price will never be reached on eBay. His auctions and failure to sell already demonstrates the actual value of a few months old bike.

I do want IMZ-Ural to prosper. I do want this fun bikes around. I also want them to be quality wise like bulletproof big engine Hondas are. I love it and I promoted it in the past a lot.
Alex

2007 GearUp bought new with 32km on odo


The rest is just a History:

2014 Ural M70
1998 Honda f6 GL 1500 Valkyrie Tourer /Champion Escort sidecar
1999 Ural Deco Classic/BMW R100 engine
1980 BMW R100RT (2nd Heart Donor for 1999 Deco for more HP)
1983 BMW R80/7 (1st Heart Donor for 1999 Deco)
2002 Ural Barberian Classic
2003 Honda Shadow ACE
1999 Ural BC (went to US circus in Tokyo to adapt a bear driver)

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scottmastrocinque
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Re: Prices

Post by scottmastrocinque » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:27 am

Ah the myth persists...

I was the Sales Manager of Brattin Motors BMW Motorcycles for years. (This is me with my good friend John Herman, BMW Living Legend, King of the Alps, Freude am Mark, 1 million miles on BMW award winner. Herm’s a BMW God!). I made my living because I cultivated an encyclopedic like knowledge of these bikes, their strengths, their shortcomings, and their reliability. I knew what was likely to be needed to fully recondition the unit before resale. It was my livelihood. That being said...
0D6CBFF5-35C8-4481-ACB8-2D42D0D4E4DE.jpeg
I have ridden THE LEGENDARY MOTORCYCLES OF GERMANY all my life, having owned dozens of different models.

Fact: BMW did not have their FI sorted out by 1985 as Robert claims. Anybody ever ride the surging F650’s? Worst FI setup ever. Or the R1200C cough and sputter? Awesome. Even the recent crop has it’s shortcomings too. Go to the BMW forum sites and they are full of complaints and horror stories.

Anybody remember this lovely time in BMW land? LOL
F0A8DC71-A717-40C3-B4D3-3FE9A7984D33.jpeg

BMW’s break all the time. Final drives explode, rear main seals blow out, transmissions grenade and even engines self-destruct. They are machinery and all machinery has a failure rate. Even BMW. Furthermore, anybody who has experienced this failure AFTER the warranty has expired, knows just how $$$ BMW parts are. It’s in the name folks, BMW - Bring More Wallet!

As for the idea that Urals are sold at BMW level prices, that’s also untrue. BMW’s R1250R without ABS, starts at $15,500 for just a bike! No sidecar, no reverse gear, no leading link suspension, nope. That stuff will add significant thousands to your base BMW price and you will have to send your bike to a specialist non-BMW shop to do it and void your factory warranty in the process. (DMZ sidecars in WA state, currently sells a M72A sidecar, a basic clone of the Ural sidecar, for $5,995 STRIPPED! Every little addition is $200-$650 additional, like a brake setup, $650 parts only). You will also have no dealer network for all intensive purposes. Most BMW shops will not work on sidecar BMW’s. They are not setup for it and BMW Motorrad doesn’t like people messing with their designs.

As for the myth that you can get a “slightly older” BMW airhead for less $ and just mount a sidecar on it, again, untrue. The last airhead R100 was made in 1995. That makes it almost 25 years old minimum. Many parts are NLA for that bike. Prices currently range for about $6000 - $15,000 depending upon model, condition, and mileage and then you must modify the bike for $$$. There is on CycleTrader.com a 1983 Airhead with a Watsonian sidecar currently for sale for $12,000. Stock front end, no reverse, and only a 36 year old bike! Wow. Sign me up! NOT.

You cannot just get any part you want for any BMW dating back to a 1935 model. Hogwash! You cannot even get sidecases and mounts for any R1150 model. They are NLA as are thousands of BMW parts. Try restoring some classic airheads like I have, like a R100RS for example. Seals and rubber trim, NLA, clocks and other electrics, NLA, and the list goes on... Remember diode boards?
s-l1600.jpg
It’s life folks. Stuff no longer becomes economically viable so they don’t make it anymore.

However, windmill hit the nail on the head. It’s all about economy of scale. Ural simply doesn’t have it. They are like my favorite marque, Moto Guzzi. A hand-builder of a limited number of motorcycles per year. The fact that they pull it off at all is incredible and a testament to the commitment of the owner of the company to his product.

When you produce in small numbers, it cost the maximum per unit produced. It’s simple economics. Supply, demand, and price curves.
D6D008B2-EA5F-4B13-ABF2-18C051F0472F.jpeg

This is why aftermarket stuff for our rigs is limited and $$$. Nobody gets rich selling boutique brands like Ural, or Moto Guzzi, or Ducati, or KTM, etc. They do it because they love it.

I pay the price because it is what it is, however there is no other factory sidecar motorcycle that I am aware of that comes with what my 2017 Ural came with for what little $ I paid for it. Nothing.
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Last edited by scottmastrocinque on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX
2009 Moto Guzzi California Vintage
2008 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evoluzione
1997 Moto Guzzi V10 Centauro


"There comes a time in your life when you have to let go of all the pointless drama and the people who create it and surround yourself with people who make you laugh so hard that you forget the bad and focus solely on the good. After all, life is too short to be anything but happy."

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Claus
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Re: Prices

Post by Claus » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:54 am

You´re absolute spot on!
I earn my living in repairing and restoring air head BMW. Only reason I can do that is I´m networked very well because I do it since two decades.
And stiil I´m not able to supply every single part. But I get by quite well.
I quit touching oil heads when more and more customers showed up who bought bikes like R1100RT for under €1000 and thought these were indestructable and a repair in an independent shop like mine could not cost over € 300. Parts are quite pricey and you need lots of diagnosis tools that you can´t really afford. (different to bikes for the U.S market, where there isn´t a dealer in every little village, the wiring loom does require the BMW tools to do a proper diagnosis and maintainance) Apart to older BMW motorcycles, some things are much more complicated to maintain and repair, and the greed (or should I say the desire to earn money) changed the way those bikes are constructed, I remeber the times you alluded to, where they made final drives without a drain- and filling plug. Life time filling. :mrgreen: Well, not the bike´s lifetime. Only the final drive´s :lol: .You can´t repair them quick, easy and cheap. Let poeple do it, who really are into that models. I´ll stick with the models between 1969 and 1995.

Many of my customers have airhead rigs. That´s NOT cheap, if you want to do it right. And to repair an engine to zero km will be north of $3500.
So to ride a R100 with a leading link fork, reverse gear, disc brake on hack and a lovely paint is around the price for a new Ural or above that. It depends on what you want. No problem to spend 30k on such a rig, when you want a vehicle where any part is like brand new.
Regarding this, I´ll keep my 1993 Ural forever but I´m far away of buying a new one. (where I love the new Urals, when I ride a customer´s rig occasionally) I´d rather build another BMW R100R rig for the same money if I´d had it in pocket.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 659 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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scottmastrocinque
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Re: Prices

Post by scottmastrocinque » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:58 am

I think Claus knows what he is talking about also... (Pics from his website for his shop, Zeitlos Motorcycle Workshop in Hamburg, Germany)
image3.jpg
image2.jpg
image4.jpg
image.jpg
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2017 Ural Gear Up Sahara
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX
2009 Moto Guzzi California Vintage
2008 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport
2007 Piaggio X9 500 Evoluzione
1997 Moto Guzzi V10 Centauro


"There comes a time in your life when you have to let go of all the pointless drama and the people who create it and surround yourself with people who make you laugh so hard that you forget the bad and focus solely on the good. After all, life is too short to be anything but happy."

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Lokiboy
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Re: Prices

Post by Lokiboy » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:59 am

scottmastrocinque wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:27 am
Ah the myth persists...

I was the Sales Manager of Brattin Motors BMW Motorcycles for years. (This is me with my good friend John Herman, BMW Living Legend, King of the Alps, Freude am Mark, 1 million miles on BMW award winner. Herm’s a BMW God!). I made my living because I cultivated an encyclopedic like knowledge of these bikes, their strengths, their shortcomings, and their reliability. I knew what was likely to be needed to fully recondition the unit before resale. It was my livelihood. That being said...

0D6CBFF5-35C8-4481-ACB8-2D42D0D4E4DE.jpeg

I have ridden THE LEGENDARY MOTORCYCLES OF GERMANY all my life, having owned dozens of different models.

I pay the price because it is what it is, however there is no other factory sidecar motorcycle that I am aware of that comes with what my 2017 Ural came with for what little $ I paid for it. Nothing.
WOW! Actual information versus anecdotal and often misinformation. Refreshing.
2011 Gear Up - "Erika"
Yorktown, VA

Mains: 127, Idle: 40, Needle: 1 shim
MKIII air filter
100,000 km and counting

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VWK75S
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Re: Prices

Post by VWK75S » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:06 am

scottmastrocinque wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:27 am
Fact: BMW did not have their FI sorted out by 1985 as Robert claims.
You beat me to it. The Bosch FI on my K-bike is pretty crude but works.
John
The Ural's made Maine a much bigger state.

2009 GearUp 145,000kms
2007 Retro 25,000kms
1991 VWK75S 110,000miles

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