EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
gobium
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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby gobium » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:09 pm

Not hard figure out.
Use timming light and kicker to count the teeth and grooves

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby gobium » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:16 pm

:roll: :P
Let's discuss the CPS :lol:
Not CBS!

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Albuquralque » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:27 pm

BlueRockCrawler wrote:
Albuquralque wrote:
BlueRockCrawler wrote:34 teeth plus one missing tooth. The last tooth before the extra wide groove is TDC to the hall effect sensor.


Are you sure about it being the groove "before" the larger groove.......... :?

No, I'm counting the raised parts not the groves through an "1 hole and obviously not doing well. This is why I asked if somebody who had one out had counted the teeth. :lol: as near as I can tell, it's the raised part right before the wide groove that's under the crank position sensor at TDC. Again if somebody had one out, they probably have a touch better view then mine.


Did you watch my video? It shows exactly the position of the flywheel at TDC.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
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Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby BlueRockCrawler » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:41 am

Albuquralque wrote:Did you watch my video? It shows exactly the position of the flywheel at TDC.

Yes, and even tried to count the teeth, but I don't need to know where the flywheel is at in the peephole at TDC, I need to know what tooth is under the Hall sensor at TDC and the two are different.

gobium wrote:34 teeth
33 small grooves
One large grove
Large groove triggers the fire

360 degrees
2 teeth deleted to made on large groove


Thank you for confirming that I can count to 34 :lol: :cheers:
I counted with the kicker and a sharpie, but what's the timing light for? Am I at least right about the last tooth before the big gap is under the hall sensor at TDC? It looks like you can tell the ECU to time off of whatever tooth you feel like, it's not technically a hard coded trigger, it's more like a time keeper that the ECU uses to trigger timed events.
Trevorski, I don't think of this as any different than changing the jets on the carb or putting coils with real goddarn high tension towers on but I do hear what you're saying about EPA and Euro emission certification. They already give us a map that's as illegal as a VW diesel so whats' the big deal. :foilhead: There's got to be better ways of helping out the dealers, maybe a patreon or gofundme for the good ones. :lol:

2015 Ural Patrol
previous Honda's were
2002 750 shadow A.C.E.
2004 919
1985 500 Magna

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Albuquralque » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:51 am

BlueRockCrawler wrote:
Albuquralque wrote:Did you watch my video? It shows exactly the position of the flywheel at TDC.

Yes, and even tried to count the teeth, but I don't need to know where the flywheel is at in the peephole at TDC, I need to know what tooth is under the Hall sensor at TDC and the two are different.



I don't think the question should be what tooth/groove is under the CPS when the engine is at TDC. The question should be, what groove/tooth is under the CPS 4 degrees before TDC. At idle, the Ural has approximately 4 degrees advance....meaning it fires the plugs 4 degrees before the piston hits TDC. My flywheel has a TDC mark, but no "Timing Mark". You can roughly guess where the firing mark is in the timing window. Rotate the engine around until you barely see the TDC mark in the bottom of the window. (If you have an older Ural, you can rotate the engine around to the timing mark and see the TDC mark in the very bottom of the window).

Once you have the flywheel in this position, remove the CPS and see whats under it. When reinstalling the CPS, make sure to lube the o-ring seal so it slides in the hole easily and seals well. Make sure the CPS is fully seated back in it's hole as well.

Let us know what you find.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby gobium » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:49 am

It was simpler back in the old days!

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Albuquralque » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:14 am

gobium wrote:It was simpler back in the old days!



+1
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby BlueRockCrawler » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am

Darrell, it doesn't work like that. The computer isn't using the CPS as a trigger per se, it just tells the ECU where the crank is and it does some amazing math and times events accordingly. It knows where the crank is and when to fire. But it's not a particular tooth that actually fires off the events, the ECU does, and it should be able to adjust the advance according to engine load, temp. and RPM. At the end of that video up above, you can see he has it set to keep a 10 deg. advance until it warms up and how he tells the ECU what the pattern is. This stuff is fascinating. :D
2015 Ural Patrol
previous Honda's were
2002 750 shadow A.C.E.
2004 919
1985 500 Magna

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby gobium » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:33 am

Put a timming light on it , you will see the grooves move at idle and 2000 rmp

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Albuquralque » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 am

BlueRockCrawler wrote:Darrell, it doesn't work like that. The computer isn't using the CPS as a trigger per se, it just tells the ECU where the crank is and it does some amazing math and times events accordingly. It knows where the crank is and when to fire. But it's not a particular tooth that actually fires off the events, the ECU does, and it should be able to adjust the advance according to engine load, temp. and RPM. At the end of that video up above, you can see he has it set to keep a 10 deg. advance until it warms up and how he tells the ECU what the pattern is. This stuff is fascinating. :D


Maybe do a little more research on why there needs to be a groove in the flywheel that is larger than the rest.

I fully understand the CPS doesn't "trigger" the ignition to fire. But the pulsed (or square wave) signal from the CPS needs to have a marker signal that the ECU is programmed to recognize and know exactly where the crank is at when this signal is received.

It is fascinating stuff.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

rivers
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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby rivers » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:54 am

You looking to mark the 4*BTDC mark on the flywheel? Use a "degree wheel". They don't cost much.
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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby gobium » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:58 am

rivers wrote:You looking to mark the 4*BTDC mark on the flywheel? Use a "degree wheel". They don't cost much.

Joe
Dont a degree wheel to figure out efi fly wheel.
All the info are there with the grooves

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby BlueRockCrawler » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:11 pm

Albuquralque wrote:
Maybe do a little more research on why there needs to be a groove in the flywheel that is larger than the rest.

I fully understand the CPS doesn't "trigger" the ignition to fire. But the pulsed (or square wave) signal from the CPS needs to have a marker signal that the ECU is programmed to recognize and know exactly where the crank is at when this signal is received.

It is fascinating stuff.

:cheers:
I'm getting really confused about this conversation.
I'm sure that video I posted explained the wheel pattern and larger gap better than I can, and he even had pictures and cool scope tracings. I'm also sure that there's a lot of stuff I don't know I don't know so I'm posting this for the good of the forum and hoping smarter people then I will chime in :lol: as there isn't a whole lot of good info on here and it seems as if the gen pop thinks EFI is some black magic voodoo and that you shouldn't toy with dark forces :D . Gobi says 34+2 missing, so that's 5 deg. for the tooth and 5 deg. for the groove. What am I missing because it looks like the same tooth will be at the CPS from 0-5 deg, is this incorrect? Is it the tooth before the missing ones at CPS at TDC? :bow:
Gobium is right, all the info is on the grooves.
2015 Ural Patrol
previous Honda's were
2002 750 shadow A.C.E.
2004 919
1985 500 Magna

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Mr Wazzock » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:40 pm

Forget about the teeth, it's about the gap. Where the gap occurs interrupts the otherwise constant signal waveform that the train of teeth generate.

Bear in mind also the ECU's do the ignition advance, so I would also expect this moment to be ahead of TDC. Can't see why not as it would be the simplest way.

HTH (?)
Mike H
2016 Ural cT, in glorious terracotta

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Re: EFI TBs and ECU discussion

Postby Albuquralque » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:25 pm

Problem with the posted video on EFI is that it doesn't address effectively the Ural set up. The Ural CPS is a mag pic up, but instead of just one "tooth" (as shown in the video), there are high spots and grooves in the Ural flywheel. This creates a specific pulsed signal as the flywheel spins. Every time a high spot is under the CPS, it creates a pulse. Every time a groove is under the CPS, the signal drops to zero. Every time the larger groove goes underneath the CPS, the signal drops to zero for a longer duration. This is how the EFI ECU knows the position of the crank, camshaft, and pistons.

As the flywheel speed increases, the frequency of the pulses increase. The ECU uses this info to calculate engine RPM and also to calculate ignition firing advance. The CPS is just an input to the ECU. The calculations for timing and fuel injection is all housed in the ECU program.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)


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