Kick starting EFI rig

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
eastbloc
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby eastbloc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:09 pm

hawksbe wrote:If the EFI rigs can be started with a normal kick when warm (mine can, and I think most say the same thing), then surely they are both firing and squirting fuel with a normal (not excessively energetic) kick, even when cold. Seems to me it is just the extra drag of cold oil that's getting in the way.

EDIT: I mean, drag post-kick, not in the kick itself.


I think that's half right. The cold oil is making it harder to turn over the motor with enough speed to cause the EFI to squirt.

At least, that's my hypothesis that I intend to test at some point.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hawksbe » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:50 pm

Yeah, I'm wondering if when its hot there's momentum from the kick that isn't slowed by the warm/hot oil. And then when it's cold, even if you kick it good and hard, it fires/squirts, but there isn't momentum due to the drag of the cold oil. So you could kick to your hearts content.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby eastbloc » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:10 pm

If it squirted and fired then it would produce ignition which would then provide momentum. When it doesn't ignite that suggests either squirting or firing isn't happening. I've done the experiment to show that spark is there, so I presume the fuel is what doesn't get delivered unless certain conditions exist.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hotflash44 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:13 am

think the ECU will allow spark all the time when the engine is rotated but will only squirt fuel at a fixed RPM. that's why so many have reported that a fast kick on the compression stroke is needed, i tried slow kick and only fast kick gets it to fire.IMHO :cheers:
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby tgtrotter » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Thought I posted this a few days ago. But I wonder how battery condition affects he ability tokick start on EFI. Some of you kick it over no prob, others can't.
How's your battery ? Fact: a fully charged sitting battery can read 13v +. Then as soon as ignition on or started activated drop to 10v.
I know my carbuerated model will not kick over with low voltage. My EFI Harley won't even roll start with a low or bad battery. Even on a hill at 15 mph.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hawksbe » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:47 pm

But when the bike is warm, a soft push will start it. When it is cold, leaping on the damn thing won't. I find it hard to believe that it's not spinning quickly enough to squirt with the leap, when a more gentle push will apparently easily cause it to squirt when warm. At least it feels like I'm spinning it a lot harder with the vigorous kick when cold than with that soft push when warm.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hotflash44 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:13 pm

hawksbe, dont know maybe when warm the computer changes the charge, and cold its like a rich charge, sort of like a choke would provide. hell i am only guessing, we need help figuring this out! :oops: :cheers:
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby eastbloc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:17 pm

The prevailing theory is that it's not how _hard_ you kick, but rather how _fast_ especially as the engine is turning over TDC (at the top of the kick stroke, if you've aligned TDC correctly).

As far as voltage levels are concerned, I've definitely been able to kickstart the bike when it has not had enough juice to operate the starter.
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tgtrotter
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby tgtrotter » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:59 pm

Harder Faster, Harder Faster, Harder Faster.....

Q. Where have I heard that before ?????

A. Wendy O' Williams.

Warning: Don't Google the answer in public

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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby Mr Wazzock » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:34 pm

eastbloc wrote:I've done the experiment to show that spark is there, ...

Really?

Image


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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby Mr Wazzock » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:40 pm

tgtrotter wrote: How's your battery ? Fact: a fully charged sitting battery can read 13v +. Then as soon as ignition on or started activated drop to 10v.

Yeah but no but, if leccy starter works no problem, it's not that.


hawksbe wrote:But when the bike is warm, a soft push will start it. When it is cold, leaping on the damn thing won't. I find it hard to believe that it's not spinning quickly enough to squirt with the leap, when a more gentle push will apparently easily cause it to squirt when warm. At least it feels like I'm spinning it a lot harder with the vigorous kick when cold than with that soft push when warm.

One significant difference is the gas is fully evaporated in a warm/hot engine, in a cold engine it mostly condenses out onto the inlet walls.

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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hawksbe » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:35 am

Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, I KNOW it is getting gas because it will very briefly fire when kickstarted cold. It just will never catch long enough to actually run.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hotflash44 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:39 am

Mr Wazzock ,your right gas goes bang better when atomized, it doesn't require much heat to vaporize gasoline. on many engines the long branch tubes in their manifolds allow cold gas to atomize somewhat before entering the combustion chamber,but motorcycle have short runners .many 2 or 3 inches long. :cheers:
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby eastbloc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:58 pm

hawksbe wrote:Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, I KNOW it is getting gas because it will very briefly fire when kickstarted cold. It just will never catch long enough to actually run.


That's not what happens to mine. When it won't start, it's stone cold. No sign of combustion. If I can get it to fire at all, it's a sure sign that it will start and run with another kick or two.
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Re: Kick starting EFI rig

Postby hawksbe » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:09 am

I believe it - these rigs sure seem to have individual personalities.
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